From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C37E83B29E for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 15:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3db16129143so1977384b6e.0 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 12:32:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1724009576; x=1724614376; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YQgocdJiG3rtr5btV9/84JdmPV0HWn/JrdCzzlGEesE=; b=ceHZ8pHnDmacZ1L5RhUVVv/eImxr8R1+ZDuyUxH7BrmglI6NHjHAkBDfuPi9mz7Rbi 1eEUVFiHL1gIHOXtkis/qJwBBpKoHCqrCz8GetlZDDIU02Q85GgDe8SvI/zyyTDWVE/p 7meTTxpVwmRpWNvAcBUgz0WAYDqLwkJv8Gt9q10hdOk0clcbG0A3aTjqGEF3/hUrsayK 0rEoamO45O1BAnDmmdG+6f706XhcwsSyFsavO+k4bWRRg4rawm8CPx8gVKnwwKsim/Yf 5hpPfbsH6hp/5fLlbVvlAOpUtv6m3i/WmEbFRioG5rOCWC/zVMu5DeU4MH+8EBzjsVS4 BNUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1724009576; x=1724614376; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YQgocdJiG3rtr5btV9/84JdmPV0HWn/JrdCzzlGEesE=; b=Wkm704jVvi8qCVcAnCq/cYV3j0JnpIqMbEI97tPfVlKuQ8+GFzwf8iZNCdyc1FUuQD 2UPChhsqPESg8R8guqKW5+k6ZoUtjXOvudvyrTLWq+WrS+g/k54GUvJAW/HYT/hJhK6n ujIuTMPKOZ37uAzTD9y83ddNu0gxb0/C8vgyLarzO+jsA+/cni/0k+gbKEKls1Gy68Hu F0qOSZ5sMxmysKleY2iDXKtX+PyBmHp9nxUtL2j3jX+NpK1H9yQ6NEyCpZz3TwJmdgeI 9aZVXHhVnyo/bvjzwLXai2zgm0fs3f0hkFHko/AyrTbNZBMHkq2Z24Snfc6rXmoejIMV 4EIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz47mMIgBmxh+Q7gC8myWC6y+N8cWxR6rAGIVH8FtBZDZJmHYOq jUTrhUM5j8Xl5TSChne9oRW8hGN2hKOc0iPAECdfCk41JnLzqFC7enBcmR77iYilJskERedURXV EkZ/UWgidiCmb+brw/vU1bUsEdMClWWRt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHp96gxgeZW3J+SrT1HyIBTmxQ5iXKeVKbCMNVhGFjupqufYIpqhnEnZwRkhC76qL210mFEotRsKB8UPuPV/TQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1782:b0:3d9:2601:891c with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3dd42eafe6amr6726187b6e.30.1724009575724; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F54B8F8-3B2B-4F45-A197-E6137A74F492@comcast.com> <47247967-DA81-4F5C-A471-767C4C721095@gmx.de> <28ebe36a-f586-42e9-917c-5c1f1cabaa6d@3kitty.org> In-Reply-To: <28ebe36a-f586-42e9-917c-5c1f1cabaa6d@3kitty.org> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:32:19 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Brian Longwe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059bfba061ffa42cc" Subject: Re: [NNagain] nn back in the news X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 19:32:56 -0000 --00000000000059bfba061ffa42cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that top level items you have mentioned, Dave, for kicking-off a follow-up NOI filling: "harping on our latency points, pointing to progress, and the need for more IXPs" are MORE than enough for starters. There are some improvements on the latency front (notably Starlink's implemenation of FQ-CoDel) so it's a good set of points to start with, IMO. ______________ I have returned from Africa yesterday, where I was attending MwNOG-1 and SAFNOG-9 in Lilongwe, Malawi. Imagine a country of almost 22 million people, having opened up ONLY its 2nd IXP, a few days ago: https://lionex.org. Literally anyone and their mother, with any means at our hands, should offer them some kind of help. There was a nice development during the event - a pledge by MACRA: Malawi Communications Regulator Authority, to open up the 3rd IXP in Malawi, this time in the city of Mzuzu, their third biggest city, with an important university: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7229821715822899200/ I don't want to hijack this thread, but if there is someone here from IXP world, willing to explore ways how to help Malawi, please - contact me privately here or on LinkedIn and I will connect you with Brian Munyao Longwe - he and quite a lot of amazing people around him, are getting things done down there in Malawi and I'm so thankful for a chance to see that. By any means, feel free to contact him directly if you want to: brian@ctnmw.net _______________ Getting back on track: I recall Paul Vixie mentioning PAIX somewhere on LinkedIn this week - couldn't find it today, so I was just searching the Internet and found this: https://www.enog.org/presentations/enog-2/12-2011-11-28-paix-history.pdf Isn't there a time to try it again? Or something similar, for that matter? Lots of things has changed - a global level of understanding of IXP importance, for example... I mean, even with a current uptake in installation we can see at https://libreqos.io, with what Preseem, Cambium Networks QoE, Paraqum and Bequant are doing with QoE middle-boxes as force multipliers to fix latency, IXP component is badly needed. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 8:06=E2=80=AFPM Jack Haverty via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > IMHO, educating politicians and regulators is difficult but necessary. > Latency is an important and overlooked component of "broadband service", > not included in the definition of such "service". But there are others > that might also catch their attention. > > I live in an area in California where wildfires are an issue. My locatio= n > officially has broadband service, according to the FCC databases. I get = IP > through cable, provided by Comcast. The IP{ service is fast and latency > hasn't been an issue for me. > > The government (state, local, and federal) have all spent a lot of money > and effort to put technology in place to mitigate the risks of wildfire > and other such natural risks, to help keep the public safe. That's their > job. We have sensors and cameras that spot smoke columns or seismic > events. We have apps and communications channels that spread the word > fast, so that people can get out of harm's way. The Internet has made > quite a difference by providing the infrastructure to make such safety > mechanisms possible. (See app.watchduty.org for an example) > > The local electric utility has also implemented mechanisms to avoid > causing wildfires. When it's dry and windy, and therefore the risks of a > falling tree limb starting a fire are high, they simply shut off the powe= r > to the area. When the risk is over, they turn power back on. It might b= e > a day or two, but while the risks are high, a fire won't be started by th= e > electric grid. Many people have installed generators to keep essential > things going in their homes. The electric utility is even offering > subsidies for people to buy such equipment. > > However... > > Comcast relies on the electric grid for power. Some areas have equipment > with backup battery power, but that only works for an hour or two. After > that, communications shuts down - in my neighborhood that means telephone= , > TV, and Internet all cease to work. All of the information from those > sensors, cameras, and emergency service agencies doesn't get to us, the > public it's supposed to help. > > Despite that behavior, officially the database says we have broadband > service available. It of course is available, most of the time. It turn= s > off when you need it the most. > > Thinking techologically for a bit, the problem is a lot like Latency. > Latency is not specified in the definition of "broadband service". > Neither is "Reliability". > > I've filed a "challenge" to my own database entry, pointing out that we > don't actually have reliable broadband service. Even if, over a month or > so, the service is 99.xxx% "up", that's not much help if it's down when y= ou > actually need it the most. The definition of "reliable" needs to be > revised. > > I don't expect any action from my challenge as just a lone voice in the > crowd. > > Perhaps educating the politicians and regulators about reliability would > grab some attention. It might be a bit easier to understand than just > "latency". > > Jack Haverty > Nevada City, CA > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000059bfba061ffa42cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that top level items you have mentioned, Dave= , for kicking-off a follow-up NOI filling: "harping on our latency poi= nts, pointing to progress, and the need for more IXPs" are MORE than e= nough for starters. There are some improvements on the latency front (notab= ly Starlink's implemenation of FQ-CoDel) so it's a good set of poin= ts to start with, IMO.
______________

I have = returned from Africa yesterday, where I was attending MwNOG-1 and SAFNOG-9 in Lilongwe, Malawi. Imagine a country o= f almost 22 million people, having opened up ONLY its 2nd IXP, a few days a= go:=C2=A0https://lionex.org. Literally a= nyone and their mother, with any means at our hands, should offer them some= kind of help. There was a nice development during the event - a pledge by = MACRA:=C2=A0Malawi Communications Regulator Authority, to open up the 3rd I= XP in Malawi, this time in the city of Mzuzu, their third biggest city, wit= h an important university:=C2=A0https://www.linkedin.com/feed/up= date/urn:li:activity:7229821715822899200/

I don'= t want to hijack this thread, but if there is someone here from IXP world, = willing to explore ways how to help Malawi, please - contact me privately h= ere or on LinkedIn and I will connect you with=C2=A0Brian Munyao Longwe=C2=A0- = he and quite a lot of amazing people around him, are getting things done do= wn there in Malawi and I'm so thankful for a chance to see that. By any= means, feel free to contact him directly if you want to: brian@ctnmw.net

____________= ___

Getting back on track: I recall Paul Vixie men= tioning PAIX somewhere on LinkedIn this week - couldn't find it today, = so I was just searching the Internet and found this:=C2=A0https:/= /www.enog.org/presentations/enog-2/12-2011-11-28-paix-history.pdf
=

Isn't =C2=A0there a time to try it again? Or someth= ing similar, for that matter? Lots of things has changed - a global level o= f understanding of IXP importance, for example...
I mean, even wi= th a current uptake in installation we can see at=C2=A0https://libreqos.io, with what Preseem, Cambium Networks Qo= E, Paraqum and Bequant are doing with QoE middle-boxes as =C2=A0force multi= pliers to fix latency, IXP component is badly needed.

<= div>

<= div>
All the best,

=

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<= u>

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik<= u>

Signa= l, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: cas= ioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 8:06=E2=80=AFPM Jack Haverty via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net= > wrote:
=20 =20 =20
IMHO, educating politicians and regulators is difficult but necessary.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Latency is an important and overlooked component= of "broadband service", not included in the definition of such "service".=C2=A0 But there are others that might also catch t= heir attention.

I live in an area in California where wildfires are an issue.=C2=A0 My location officially has broadband service, according to the FCC databases.=C2=A0 I get IP through cable, provided by Comcast.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 The IP{ service is fast and latency hasn't been an issue for me.

The government (state, local, and federal) have all spent a lot of money and effort to put technology in place to=C2=A0 mitigate the risks of wildfire and other such natural risks, to help keep the public safe.=C2=A0 That's their job.=C2=A0 We have sensors and cameras tha= t spot smoke columns or seismic events.=C2=A0 We have apps and communications channels that spread the word fast, so that people can get out of harm's way.=C2=A0 The Internet has made quite a difference by provi= ding the infrastructure to make such safety mechanisms possible.=C2=A0 (See app.watchduty.or= g for an example)

The local electric utility has also implemented mechanisms to avoid causing wildfires.=C2=A0 When it's dry and windy, and therefore the= risks of a falling tree limb starting a fire are high, they simply shut off the power to the area.=C2=A0 When the risk is over, they turn power back on.=C2=A0 It might be a day or two, but while the risks are high, = a fire won't be started by the electric grid.=C2=A0 Many people have installed generators to keep essential things going in their homes.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The electric utility is even offering subsidies for = people to buy such equipment.

However...

Comcast relies on the electric grid for power.=C2=A0 Some areas have equipment with backup battery power, but that only works for an hour or two.=C2=A0 After that, communications shuts down - in my neighborhoo= d that means telephone, TV, and Internet all cease to work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A= ll of the information from those sensors, cameras, and emergency service agencies doesn't get to us, the public it's supposed to help.
Despite that behavior, officially the database says we have broadband service available.=C2=A0 It of course is available, most of t= he time.=C2=A0 It turns off when you need it the most.

Thinking techologically for a bit, the problem is a lot like Latency.=C2=A0 Latency is not specified in the definition of "broa= dband service".=C2=A0=C2=A0 Neither is "Reliability".

I've filed a "challenge" to my own database entry, pointi= ng out that we don't actually have reliable broadband service.=C2=A0 Even if, o= ver a month or so, the service is 99.xxx% "up", that's not much= help if it's down when you actually need it the most.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The defin= ition of "reliable" needs to be revised.

I don't expect any action from my challenge as just a lone voice in the crowd.

Perhaps educating the politicians and regulators about reliability would grab some attention.=C2=A0 It might be a bit easier to understand than just "latency".

Jack Haverty
Nevada City, CA

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
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