From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 096AC3B2A4 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-77891c236fcso280832485a.3 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698083233; x=1698688033; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3o8AKfOfhnNpikOCwpGvSR9BPlSQ0W6H6U/GUlCE+cA=; b=Tz0CbSkASOVxmobrxCC5htGp+OIgnceIhi2p913aYPoiJu3OKWCvDeovDokwgYzxS9 CW1UjyuqmxiF/8XLiAMiUH0FIhiHvIBzbmLODZW5nacaKkutwX6R60nvaIHmZfrRqdMQ 8UB18rQZpKtuxLZAJ+9Sp0LJwBoO1MqlsvkAZBRVG0VFz8SJCSSLhBRUaxnLa1qSsNAe su/D973t/4+FQKK2FXyp0SPC0sRdQ4BSSxoa70kLJorSb+K0Cw4RNz8ArV4AAJsCk+Vc 7bntmRXMlw53UqD0PKNqdegKZ2hsi/QYvBDA+hgF7ZTzDBMJD3skrnH5MA/Aq7VTBG/7 +BdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698083233; x=1698688033; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3o8AKfOfhnNpikOCwpGvSR9BPlSQ0W6H6U/GUlCE+cA=; b=e6VM5ydR+Jh3zYEo66jJenZ9HIj2c4kyMxdUuw76SF7QwlJ0SycdDR+WL3hhSDPFa2 4VKO0d4XTmotCdOEc9V9sgfTl5XcaP+JrltOkUQitSlMZFTcetZdbbXjzfc0b1VbcLdD KEogc1PnSOJ7wNtun4mAxzoXkF5N4KW0QBM+9ezwZcanIFDMdAes/8soPRiFn989xZxc cFagNqYM6Nh9CxzkIej1bsWSQThtwUZ8ofQcNemUANvj/gigxbjoVFX8aBjAajfSSpOr 4VQ910SiSA1Pc4GTTW2JUTa0qxltTLimWSeRWa2WwrQxuV/Mrho4ty635svgduKFlkj+ pgAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyZGKPB6rvupxnELGS+wBeqknwytqfKdIv8DIeAldGbCEFSrVEv s77zse450M0rQKUi5dQ+1qz4C8I+e8ijUDurEnw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEdPyxlOSOagP0+72/EB2PZSvDA83OthwDTpvYT4t0MRY0TfOlddK1n5hb5nM3AY9Wl1/vz3RL4sLng0TpsT4M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1b8e:b0:417:a974:889e with SMTP id bp14-20020a05622a1b8e00b00417a974889emr11327489qtb.2.1698083233276; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:47:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:46:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: thejoff@mail.com, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb3249060865cfdb" Subject: Re: [NNagain] upgrading old routers to modern, secure FOSS X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:47:14 -0000 --000000000000eb3249060865cfdb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Such a great thing to read! Another LibreQoS man aboard. Btw, Ignacio might be here, but cc'ing him anyway. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:44=E2=80=AFPM le berger des photons via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > you've convinced me to go see libre qos. thanks. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:04=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> I loved that this guy and his ISP burned a couple weeks learning how >> to build openwrt, built something exactly to the need, *had it work >> the first time* and are in progress to update in place 200+ routers to >> better router software, that just works, with videoconferencing, IPv6 >> support, and OTA functionality. No need for a truck roll, and while >> the available bandwidth deep in these mountains in Mexico is meager, >> it is now enough for most purposes. >> >> >> https://blog.nafiux.com/posts/cnpilot_r190w_openwrt_bufferbloat_fqcodel_= cake/ >> >> I have no idea how many of this model routers were sold or are still >> deployed (?), but the modest up front cost of this sort of development >> dwarves that of deployment. Ongoing maintenance is a problem, but at >> least they are in a position now to rapidly respond to CVEs and other >> problems when they happen, having "seized control of the methods of >> computation" again. >> >> OpenWrt is known to run on 1700 different models, already, (with easy >> ports to obscure ones like this box) - going back over a decade in >> some cases. >> >> Another favorite story of mine was the ISP in New Zealand that >> deployed LibreQos and had all their support calls (from gamers and >> videoconferencers) cease overnight. The support tech, formerly drowned >> in angst from the users, set to work automating an reflashing 600 old >> agw routers they had "retired" on the shelf, and then distributing >> them to customers as extenders because the wifi finally worked right >> with the fq_codel stuff now in that release. >> >> I feel like I am tooting my own horn here a bit too much, but solving >> the right problems like MTTR, MTBF, bufferbloat, and taking back >> control of your software infrastructure while being able to customize >> it for purpose, and turning what otherwise would be ewaste into >> something that will last a decade more, is my inner "green", my inner >> stewart brand. >> >> Compare that to so many others being marketed to, to death, that buy >> the latest (and often inferior) thing, every few months, perpetually >> fooled by promises that do not pay off in the field, and often, really >> lousy MTBF. Good embedded software takes many years to develop, say, >> oh, 7, while the hardware cycle is closer to 2, nowadays, and requires >> many eyeballs to fully debug and get to lots of 9s of reliability. >> >> Back when I was even more radical about good, open, embedded, software >> than now, I used to say: "Friends don't let friends run factory >> firmware.". I do wish somehow the long term maintence costs of >> hardware with a decade plus service lifetime would be adaquately >> covered. Insurance? by law? a formal setaside from the purchase price? >> Otherwise we run the risk of turning the world's internet into a giant >> toxic waste dump that will require Superfund levels of cleanup, one >> day, and ever more contributions to trillions of dollars of fraud, and >> persistent actors having first broken down the front door, perpetually >> on the inside, wreaking more havoc. Somehow preventing that mess, up >> front, seems cheaper. >> >> Take this string of vulns: >> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcisco+router+vulnerability >> >> (try that search string with *any* manufacturer - juniper, netgear, >> tplink, >> >> There is a new vuln going around about some very old software in a >> cisco mx series which is ancient and yet 100k+ are vulnerable - (I >> worked on this while at montavista in the early 00s!) - abandonware, >> toxic waste... >> >> Anyway, in Mexico at least, 200+ routers are going to be a lot better, >> through the actions of all that contribute to linux, openwrt, and one >> smart and caring engineer. >> >> -- >> Oct 30: >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --000000000000eb3249060865cfdb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Such a great thing to read! Another LibreQoS man aboard.
Btw, Ignacio might be here, but cc'ing him anyway.

All the best,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank

=

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal= , Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885=

Skype: casi= oa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On M= on, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:44=E2=80=AFPM le berger des photons via Nnagain <<= a href=3D"mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:
you've con= vinced me to go see libre qos.=C2=A0 thanks.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Mon, Oct 23, 202= 3 at 7:04=E2=80=AFPM Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>= ; wrote:
I loved that this guy and his ISP burned= a couple weeks learning how
to build openwrt, built something exactly to the need, *had it work
the first time* and are in progress to update in place 200+ routers to
better router software, that just works, with videoconferencing, IPv6
support, and OTA functionality. No need for a truck roll, and while
the available bandwidth deep in these mountains in Mexico is meager,
it is now enough for most purposes.

https://blog.nafiux.com= /posts/cnpilot_r190w_openwrt_bufferbloat_fqcodel_cake/

I have no idea how many of this model routers were sold or are still
deployed (?), but the modest up front cost of this sort of development
dwarves that of deployment. Ongoing maintenance is a problem, but at
least they are in a position now to rapidly respond to CVEs and other
problems when they happen, having "seized control of the methods of computation" again.

OpenWrt is known to run on 1700 different models, already, (with easy
ports to obscure ones like this box) - going back over a decade in
some cases.

Another favorite story of mine was the ISP in New Zealand that
deployed LibreQos and had all their support calls (from gamers and
videoconferencers) cease overnight. The support tech, formerly drowned
in angst from the users, set to work automating an reflashing 600 old
agw routers they had "retired" on the shelf, and then distributin= g
them to customers as extenders because the wifi finally worked right
with the fq_codel stuff now in that release.

I feel like I am tooting my own horn here a bit too much, but solving
the right problems like MTTR, MTBF, bufferbloat, and taking back
control of your software infrastructure while being able to customize
it for purpose, and turning what otherwise would be ewaste into
something that will last a decade more, is my inner "green", my i= nner
stewart brand.

Compare that to so many others being marketed to, to death, that buy
the latest (and often inferior) thing, every few months, perpetually
fooled by promises that do not pay off in the field, and often, really
lousy MTBF. Good embedded software takes many years to develop, say,
oh, 7, while the hardware cycle is closer to 2, nowadays, and requires
many eyeballs to fully debug and get to lots of 9s of reliability.

Back when I was even more radical about good, open, embedded, software
than now, I used to say: "Friends don't let friends run factory firmware.". I do wish somehow the long term maintence costs of
hardware with a decade plus service lifetime would be adaquately
covered. Insurance? by law? a formal setaside from the purchase price?
Otherwise we run the risk of turning the world's internet into a giant<= br> toxic waste dump that will require Superfund levels of cleanup, one
day, and ever more contributions to trillions of dollars of fraud, and
persistent actors having first broken down the front door, perpetually
on the inside, wreaking more havoc. Somehow preventing that mess, up
front, seems cheaper.

Take this string of vulns:
https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcisco+= router+vulnerability

(try that search string with *any* manufacturer - juniper, netgear, tplink,=

There is a new vuln going around about some very old software in a
cisco mx series which is ancient and yet 100k+ are vulnerable -=C2=A0 (I worked on this while at montavista in the early 00s!)=C2=A0 - abandonware,<= br> toxic waste...

Anyway, in Mexico at least, 200+ routers are going to be a lot better,
through the actions of all that contribute to linux, openwrt, and one
smart and caring engineer.

--
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/= 0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
--000000000000eb3249060865cfdb--