From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EADB3CB37; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 14:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a26ed1e05c7so23380666b.2; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:12:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1709147530; x=1709752330; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yP6nMzLZ3j3SE42mvoy1JW9toAsSbPb0h9jfzLyHjfY=; b=SBkoAbBJ7YFnv8rR5YBlitAhx9ug9NmvP2fqxOT+eWrGBQ1EzUrNKqkWg9UNrF1pad l8ebgFu9DMbZE8MIfUKcgvebTXxSSt7c7j9sE+eNE0RjuKQHW5mJG+XrXUrA9M1rHYyv Fv81nggR3f1r/3ks2ksH9a7XgWJ+SqoZGAH7F5SbwNxXkqlUh3CVZxJWcXvcW8A59bWA FcPGAS7szM4jNpDCLZtDi24syiUEKHuZ9yLdhEd8LYl7HN/rYUycoqC/OO6AVq7uiMr/ 88Mnd5ktaxYzlx8IPvQ22O7AA4VWAFrEQTY5kxBWfx/SQl4G2H3m6P2o2Y6Z0YucYB6F 8b3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709147530; x=1709752330; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=yP6nMzLZ3j3SE42mvoy1JW9toAsSbPb0h9jfzLyHjfY=; b=e0Ys1irVP5mLvleKbSOfrrEKpSXoIid6+EhTAjZnno8EAxxOO4cH0lmCsiCEYiaJr6 rDgBJ7xKAiShmxQss+itvijtDkay2UGnniBY6ydoY7QfNHbiNH/1oLtpRWSR2/h9xFvH tsPgjAC6jSXU2Up1RduDOCbYdwWdHQtHtmsy4ZrMgnyc3rB1GFYZgotBEUE/lWVdn2zK ajsBoIEdEX6/i0oorydRolhO4ZEyrbLmlA0TaH/n8VHVo8OvrmgZocnJ/7wkTkFyGLzT akw8syglIp6w8pEYZmQiWYi2ZLuxo5NYSl1ctgFqWEIc4OLgUKGi7wkRvnTPtF6ykBhF FAQw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVC7lCLP4DRMtaBOdqSYQ2WeKQ3g9WjlG4bOazhv81tHN3s7ty7ShwlUTXxHJzuFR5yi6L2Atoaj2qtZ2VNFWNZgNOh4X+5fXg+hWnB+GocGTyAohUvliiP87T772dT4b49lG+5zKFCa0YnOx+yiWN6E9HMZd5sBpM9XG6WYzdohdLGv7rTa/n5 X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz3LIqAtkKao/D058f5TD910EEdHc52H9PTP7UCsji1ZvRk2UdX XZO/KiV0ShGDKW8h/AxpKhoFBQBiT2KidYJz5tcaswg2O1j8rUrmvXnzxX310n49ynTLK1/tfxG WYnM0friJr+1Utu4xRWaZpYrq0EI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFWVJIXA4lgZZA4hDQM+ndWRvGI0OjBx0eT+asJ0bIHgKffe7AiN+y6lDvDak7l3CqE9TYnseQANG6dt9vRg3s= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:e211:b0:a3e:b263:d769 with SMTP id gf17-20020a170906e21100b00a3eb263d769mr441054ejb.4.1709147529260; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:12:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b@rjmcmahon.com> From: Fenwick Mckelvey Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 14:11:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Dave Taht , =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , discuss , National Broadband Mapping Coalition , Reza Rajabiun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059b254061275eb84" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 03 Mar 2024 08:03:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [NNagain] [M-Lab-Discuss] The FCC 2024 Section 706 Report, GN Docket No. 22-270 is out! X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:12:11 -0000 --00000000000059b254061275eb84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello from Canada, I noticed some discussion about FCC and latency again (here and on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D39533800). A few years ago, Re= za and I spent considerable work at our national regulator, CRTC, establishing a latency and packet loss threshold for a minimum service broadband. We used M-Lab data to do so and I always hoped to see more work on latency as a measure, especially because you can calculate what would be minimum theoretical latency from an off-net IXP to a home. You can see some of our work here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01972243.2019.1574533 & https://crtc.gc.ca/public/cisc/nt/NTRE061.pdf The final decision: https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2020/2020-408.htm Happy to offer any advice here and share some experiences if that helps. Be good, Fenwick On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 13:32, 'rjmcmahon' via discuss < discuss@measurementlab.net> wrote: > Thanks for sharing this. I'm trying to find out what are the key metrics > that will be used for this monitoring. I want to make sure iperf 2 can > cover the technical, traffic related ones that make sense to a skilled > network operator, including a WiFi BSS manager. I didn't read all 327 > pages though, from what I did read, I didn't see anything obvious. I > assume these types of KPIs may be in reference docs or something. > > Thanks in advance for any help on this. > Bob > > And... > > > > Our bufferbloat.net submittal was cited multiple times! Thank you all > > for participating in that process! > > > > https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-400675A1.pdf > > > > It is a long read, and does still start off on the wrong feet (IMHO), > > in particular not understanding the difference between idle and > > working latency. > > > > It is my hope that by widening awareness of more of the real problems > > with latency under load to policymakers and other submitters > > downstream from this new FCC document, and more reading what we had to > > say, that we will begin to make serious progress towards finally > > fixing bufferbloat in the USA. > > > > I do keep hoping that somewhere along the way in the future, the costs > > of IPv4 address exhaustion and the IPv6 transition, will also get > > raised to the national level. [1] > > > > We are still collecting signatures for what the bufferbloat project > > members wrote, and have 1200 bucks in the kitty for further articles > > and/or publicity. Thoughts appreciated as to where we can go next with > > shifting the national debate about bandwidth in a better direction! > > Next up would be trying to get a meeting, and to do an ex-parte > > filing, I think, and I wish we could do a live demonstration on > > television about it as good as feynman did here: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DraMmRKGkGD4 > > > > Our original posting is here: > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/19ADByjakzQXCj9Re_pUvrb5Qe5OK-QmhlYRLM= BY4vH4/edit > > > > Larry's wonderful post is here: > > https://circleid.com/posts/20231211-its-the-latency-fcc > > > > [1] How can we get more talking about IPv4 and IPv6, too? Will we have > > to wait another year? > > > > > https://hackaday.com/2024/02/14/floss-weekly-episode-769-10-more-internet= / > > > > -- > > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/ > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to discuss+unsubscribe@measurementlab.net. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/measurementlab.net/d/msgid/discuss/3d808d9df1= a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b%40rjmcmahon.com > . > --=20 Be good, Fen --00000000000059b254061275eb84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello from Canada,
I noticed some discussio= n about FCC and latency again (here and on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?= id=3D39533800). A few years ago, Reza and I spent considerable work at = our national regulator, CRTC, establishing a latency and packet loss thresh= old for a minimum service broadband. We used M-Lab data to do so and I alwa= ys hoped to see more work on latency as a measure, especially because you c= an calculate what would be minimum theoretical latency from an off-net IXP = to a home.



Happy to= offer any advice here and share some experiences if that helps.
=
Be good,
Fenwick

On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 1= 3:32, 'rjmcmahon' via discuss <discuss@measurementlab.net> wrote:
Thanks for sharing this. I'm try= ing to find out what are the key metrics
that will be used for this monitoring. I want to make sure iperf 2 can
cover the technical, traffic related ones that make sense to a skilled
network operator, including a WiFi BSS manager. I didn't read all 327 <= br> pages though, from what I did read, I didn't see anything obvious. I assume these types of KPIs may be in reference docs or something.

Thanks in advance for any help on this.
Bob
> And...
>
> Our bufferbloat.net submittal was cited multiple times! Thank you all=
> for participating in that process!
>
> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments= /DOC-400675A1.pdf
>
> It is a long read, and does still start off on the wrong feet (IMHO),<= br> > in particular not understanding the difference between idle and
> working latency.
>
> It is my hope that by widening awareness of more of the real problems<= br> > with latency under load to policymakers and other submitters
> downstream from this new FCC document, and more reading what we had to=
> say, that we will begin to make serious progress towards finally
> fixing bufferbloat in the USA.
>
> I do keep hoping that somewhere along the way in the future, the costs=
> of IPv4 address exhaustion and the IPv6 transition, will also get
> raised to the national level. [1]
>
> We are still collecting signatures for what the bufferbloat project > members wrote, and have 1200 bucks in the kitty for further articles > and/or publicity. Thoughts appreciated as to where we can go next with=
> shifting the national debate about bandwidth in a better direction! > Next up would be trying to get a meeting, and to do an ex-parte
> filing, I think, and I wish we could do a live demonstration on
> television about it as good as feynman did here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DraMmRKGkGD4<= br> >
> Our original posting is here:
> https://doc= s.google.com/document/d/19ADByjakzQXCj9Re_pUvrb5Qe5OK-QmhlYRLMBY4vH4/edit
>
> Larry's wonderful post is here:
> https://circleid.com/posts/20231211-its-= the-latency-fcc
>
> [1] How can we get more talking about IPv4 and IPv6, too? Will we have=
> to wait another year?
>
> https://hackaday.com/= 2024/02/14/floss-weekly-episode-769-10-more-internet/
>
> --
> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/2024_predictions/<= /a>
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to discuss+unsubscribe@measurementlab.net.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.c= om/a/measurementlab.net/d/msgid/discuss/3d808d9df1a6929ecfba495e75b4fc1b%40= rjmcmahon.com.


--
Be good,
Fen
--00000000000059b254061275eb84--