From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6E13B29D for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 19:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-53e2308198eso4108256a12.1 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:23:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698449003; x=1699053803; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0M7eiLS4ZMHOwxZGfhonC4CT1KKoCFdyNJrApRT2nJo=; b=jD7f6bV8K/rnqISBzzEg4V3aJDAK3vZFb4wgPgtSNiaeTGMsCR9vf24ZL7CoxkA6SV CscnuqIfN5gGICosdDhT2bKvWZ7LZ4CzEo2nJxiNyrD3KGRQXHHG6RF6NWpKyrJgo3sn yGBpPxyt7JK+wnyUuNJWXTuViSYA8orycxjnauHCq1wLroXw4gBI3zaDCtqGk39W+OU8 s9qTo8Ms6FKbFutzF7L9FlYVUbKxNHq4Lb5rCw3sYCmZmkCWUkghNeAMLo5ea3QVO8Na FoEcYrBmAbuIXjZxXiR2OYmAz6Lrm2Nbagm/ENAtbMmi58W84xFTrJQEqFKw4pKZmNq9 JDjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698449003; x=1699053803; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0M7eiLS4ZMHOwxZGfhonC4CT1KKoCFdyNJrApRT2nJo=; b=fOncEDK5lfdT1GCs61B+pYXZIp2dpU383GwywTg0Nw96h8p3BqUtSlSp8yj5DIodaa nFZeW6PogPmt3SVXy/FZW4HfkDCvOgLQx1RpMI58hxX+nDGHWHvX0wiJbebPPy/yrP9p 7eCQFWow+vnsNKh29uXIFZyCzwmIY+Jm9hqBfjpj2r+rGEDxxAigrvEb3zyXpjJDSLwt yMl2UGloYXEeaBXse8lzjFSuZw8zJZ77gPcoKU1uQsTPoUFrXJDjudsWouWBX1d9s878 kumgxXVkIn2qFku0dkh4WIyNVMHQv53EBn/npq6FSvzvq3dEmP84c0I4eqQy97rIl16X awsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw8EbyzZ4xMSMtLgDLYlyZDMy68k9mAbFAPjihTWYaurYMgoOzO 1YIwURBf5GGao2A5gqWC5QrEHAAGRtaY3YQgBlXGdIJS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGIvn5eMuKjhTaYElIdMuqDTFOx26XFImx0SHnZe0Sc+SGzhnZ5w69Qh3yNyJx/+qnYT09AhRsV+IdgxPRlDG4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1843:b0:533:c75a:6f6 with SMTP id v3-20020a056402184300b00533c75a06f6mr3042081edy.12.1698449002578; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:23:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20231027214840.7A4FA28C20C@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <20231027214840.7A4FA28C20C@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> From: Nathan Simington Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 19:23:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077c7b70608baf9ff" Subject: Re: [NNagain] Spam filtering X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 23:23:25 -0000 --00000000000077c7b70608baf9ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover. Self-hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filtered by Outlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-extend -- "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a core standard. On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > [Was Amtrack] > > > > 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is vanishin= g > into > > spam boxes. > > > > What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over the > years > > not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying honestly to > > communicate? > > There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network geeks > have > done. > > How about discussing the things they haven't done? > > Spam would be pretty high on my list. It's tangled up with (in)security > -- a > lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts. > > The current approach to spam is cost shifting. If you don't pay for your > abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., means > that > the rest of the net has to spend more on defense. > > Anybody remember Spamford Wallace? He was going to setup a spam friendly > ISP. > Nobody would connect to him. I wonder what would happen if a few ISPs > that > host a lot of abuse had more troubles getting connected to the net. > Would a > few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word? > > > > High on my list would be dis/mis-information. The business model seems t= o > be > to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show them > more > ads. Gues what does that? > > Is this also cost shifting? It's society as a whole that has to pay for > the > disruption caused by bogus information. > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --=20 Nathan Simington cell: 305-793-6899 --00000000000077c7b70608baf9ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This has gone from mere cost-shifting to protocol takeover= . Self-hosting is essentially dead because you are guaranteed to get filter= ed by Outlook and Gmail, which means that there is de facto embrace-and-ext= end -- "best viewed in Internet Explorer at 800x600" but for a co= re standard.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 5:48=E2=80=AFPM Hal Murray via Nnagain = <nnagain@lists.bufferbl= oat.net> wrote:
[Was Amtrack]


> 2) I could get mad that I figure 80% of this new email list is vanishi= ng into
> spam boxes.


> What of the 10s of thousands of other emails that have come over the y= ears
> not just from lists.bufferbloat.net but from people trying hone= stly to
> communicate?

There is/was a good discussion of all the good things that network geeks ha= ve
done.

How about discussing the things they haven't done?

Spam would be pretty high on my list.=C2=A0 It's tangled up with (in)se= curity -- a
lot comes from infected systems or phished accounts.

The current approach to spam is cost shifting.=C2=A0 If you don't pay f= or your
abuse desk, the crap that you send or phishing sites you host..., means tha= t
the rest of the net has to spend more on defense.

Anybody remember Spamford Wallace?=C2=A0 He was going to setup a spam frien= dly ISP.
=C2=A0Nobody would connect to him.=C2=A0 I wonder what would happen if a fe= w ISPs that
host a lot of abuse had=C2=A0 more troubles getting connected to the net.= =C2=A0 Would a
few well publicized examples be enough to spread the word?



High on my list would be dis/mis-information.=C2=A0 The business model seem= s to be
to show customers things that will keep them online so you can show them mo= re
ads.=C2=A0 Gues what does that?

Is this also cost shifting?=C2=A0 It's society as a whole that has to p= ay for the
disruption caused by bogus information.


--
These are my opinions.=C2=A0 I hate spam.



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Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
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Nathan Simington
cell:=C2=A0305-793-6899
--00000000000077c7b70608baf9ff--