From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C947B3B2A4 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-53dd3f169d8so5612231a12.3 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:23:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699820592; x=1700425392; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iKL9f4rKt6Npowt78l8c8b/xXEkN3mQhqcpiPl90kd8=; b=jHueuY4NW4Hd/JZmNi1KZdaiv5/Hdy1NhJemGggCNXvFuunkdHvy3zk/xMD/o2Jrbd JHBo0tbA9BSEHXSXEKIPtFveN1mS3ZTCyeTrZ8a+grcULB9j0GosCgIVdHrSp8GP+wk+ 1UIl9PKY+kYu/+TsVP+I+N26Y4rNxtoiAMPD1lpaPGUTATnu1sdlJgslPvi6YW/l+Onz tQNf4w47VGeyWfxxAIZmaaEuEXJ6IbG3j/OZUc2py3fYCqNdwiHYZzh5xRU1iujdTTAH Zy0vb7F6FYb2iUYVucwwzd1R0+bIhnjrjngTlTlhSDn0yfyGOAO61KhmTnzATtE8Kt8j 9+wA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699820592; x=1700425392; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iKL9f4rKt6Npowt78l8c8b/xXEkN3mQhqcpiPl90kd8=; b=McW/7vyX4SQbdy9bvF8wqhYwk6ApqAIg1Ip+kYaMhbEGBb2fzRHD2W0D067jsgA+fy 0UDTBsdsWPiYLeUIr69uzQZaLg4/rFfPieEVeO0LCEuZp3oP450mQ1HFO6tLMNlCfESH I+wCSdOt3f/lQbU5BjUpsRW+Q742GGUIkn/zbL6N/JOZq6VD8d9eQzuFiwW44QqtGqKq j63tCTtQxe/T22YN3JdFa/XF6XSub5ZbaRolxY77NXD7SzzriYjN4HDx4vJLoE2wj1vB JwBwSoiqYYveqUR2XsaNK+CY1lNLTAgv6s40CtIa7/OrmhcpHA8T5RJcX3xX37aqqFhn alNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzFMSLxCSdb4e3NG/nP/F+wh1xF4ZYJuDUSWv8fnv0kO95g83Cg fHwmwT5ir3oMKGccSgwlgXHBUrsXZTbDNOVLcDRix8FX X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG61HW23x/Sxd2scsaR9X8HTOkzgUKp9K2QQvbpPL+BS5Sd4UDhXgCwETTvBJjLxno+MGqiSvZXxmXjy/J3ihY= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c6cc:0:b0:544:92f1:83d0 with SMTP id b12-20020aa7c6cc000000b0054492f183d0mr3603484eds.0.1699820592143; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:23:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nathan Simington Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:22:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093a0350609fa52cf" Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 20:23:13 -0000 --00000000000093a0350609fa52cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, Re not seeing productivity gains, I'm very interested in seeing telecom start to translate more into productivity, including nuts-and-bolts manufacturing productivity. (From a 30-year backward perspective, you could reasonably argue IMHO that much of the ideology that "deindustrialization is good" was generated to justify software companies' valuation multipliers. The Chinese don't seem to agree that deindustrialization is good or that it's a bad idea to hold production assets on-balance sheet. Meanwhile, it's been historically much easier to make money in flaky, consumer-grade software than in reliable, infrastructure-grade smart manufacturing/logistics -- even though it's clear that the latter is the real prize, just as steel mills were a bigger prize for the 18th-c UK than faster post-horses or cheaper India ink would have been.) I think a lazy, vague equation between "good 5G" and "Chinese-style smart manufacturing" has had a lot of policy salience in the last 5 years. Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to make that connection as well. Also, I think you had a catch-up with Adam from my team about wireless ISPs/improved routers -- hope that went well! Take care, Nathan On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Aside from me pinning the start of the bubble closer to 1992 when > commercial activity was allowed, and M&A for ISPs at insane valuations > per subscriber by 1995 (I had co-founded an ISP in 93, but try as I > might I cannot remember if it peaked at 50 or 60x1 by 1996 (?) and > crashed by 97 (?)), this was a whacking good read, seems accurate, and > moves to comparing it across that to the present day AI bubble. > > https://www.fabricatedknowledge.com/p/lessons-from-history-the-rise-and > > In the end we sold (my ISP, founded 93) icanect for 3 cents on the > dollar in 99, and I lost my shirt (not for the first time) on it, only > to move into embedded Linux (Montavista) after the enormous pop > redhat's IPO had had in 99. The company I was part of slightly prior > (Mediaplex) went public December 12, 1999 and cracked 100/share, only > to crash by march, 2000 to half the IPO price (around $7 as I recall), > wiping out everyone that had not vested yet. I lost my shirt again on > that and Montavista too and decided I would avoid VCs henceforth. > > I am always interested in anecdotal reports of personal events in this > increasingly murky past, and in trying to fact check the above link. > > So much fiber got laid by 2000 that it is often claimed that it was at > least a decade before it was used up, (the article says only 2.7% was > in use by 2002) and I have always wondered how much dark, broken, > inaccessible fiber remains that nobody knows where it even is anymore > due to many lost databases. I hear horror stories... > > The article also focuses solely on the us sector, and I am wondering > what it looked like worldwide. > > I believed in the 90s we were seeing major productivity gains. The > present expansion of the internet in my mind should not be much > associated with "productivity gains", as, imho, reducing the general > population to two thumbs and a 4 inch screen strikes me as an enormous > step backwards. > > (I have a bad habit of cross posting my mails to where older denizens > of the internet reside, sorry! If you end up posting to one of my > lists I will add a sender allows filter for you) > -- > :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --=20 Nathan Simington cell: 305-793-6899 --00000000000093a0350609fa52cf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave,

Re not seeing productivity gai= ns, I'm very interested in seeing telecom start to translate more into = productivity, including nuts-and-bolts manufacturing productivity.

(From a 30-year backward perspective, you could reasonably= argue IMHO that much of the ideology that "deindustrialization is goo= d" was generated to justify software companies' valuation multipli= ers. The Chinese don't seem to agree that deindustrialization is good o= r that it's a bad idea to hold production assets on-balance sheet. Mean= while, it's been historically much easier to make money in flaky, consu= mer-grade software than in reliable, infrastructure-grade smart manufacturi= ng/logistics -- even though it's clear that the latter is the real priz= e, just as steel mills were a bigger prize for the 18th-c UK than faster po= st-horses or cheaper India ink would have been.)

I= think a lazy, vague equation between "good 5G" and "Chinese= -style smart manufacturing" has had a lot of policy salience in the la= st 5 years. Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a sm= art manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity,=C2=A0lat= ency, compute=C2=A0availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy = who does devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good = to make that connection as well. Also, I think you had a catch-up with Adam= from my team about wireless ISPs/improved routers -- hope that went well!<= /div>

Take care,
Nathan

On Sun, Nov 12, 2= 023 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Aside from me pinning the start of the bubble closer to= 1992 when
commercial activity was allowed, and M&A for ISPs at insane valuations<= br> per subscriber by 1995 (I had co-founded an ISP in 93, but try as I
might I cannot remember if it peaked at 50 or 60x1 by 1996 (?) and
crashed by 97 (?)), this was a whacking good read, seems accurate, and
moves to comparing it across that to the present day AI bubble.

https://www.fabricatedknowled= ge.com/p/lessons-from-history-the-rise-and

In the end we sold (my ISP, founded 93) icanect for 3 cents on the
dollar in 99, and I lost my shirt (not for the first time) on it, only
to move into embedded Linux (Montavista) after the enormous pop
redhat's IPO had had in 99. The company I was part of slightly prior (Mediaplex) went public December 12, 1999 and cracked 100/share, only
to crash by march, 2000 to half the IPO price (around $7 as I recall),
wiping out everyone that had not vested yet. I lost my shirt again on
that and Montavista too and decided I would avoid VCs henceforth.

I am always interested in anecdotal reports of personal events in this
increasingly murky past, and in trying to fact check the above link.

So much fiber got laid by 2000 that it is often claimed that it was at
least a decade before it was used up, (the article says only 2.7% was
in use by 2002) and I have always wondered how much dark, broken,
inaccessible fiber remains that nobody knows where it even is anymore
due to many lost databases. I hear horror stories...

The article also focuses solely on the us sector, and I am wondering
what it looked like worldwide.

I believed in the 90s we were seeing major productivity gains. The
present expansion of the internet in my mind should not be much
associated with "productivity gains", as, imho, reducing the gene= ral
population to two thumbs and a 4 inch screen strikes me as an enormous
step backwards.

(I have a bad habit of cross posting my mails to where older denizens
of the internet reside, sorry! If you end up posting to one of my
lists I will add a sender allows filter for you)
--
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab<= br> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain


--
Nathan Simington
cell:=C2=A0305-793-6899
--00000000000093a0350609fa52cf--