From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x32d.google.com (mail-ot1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8564B3CB37 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 23:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6c63117a659so2080935a34.0 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 20:41:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1697341298; x=1697946098; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IFLo8WELBQ1iwlNuE96ubiLuuf1ZrA8798urPr2bF4U=; b=R/wR07Gx/Ox2i1zFMdCtERtYvM8BWjmWPqHqlX8GbnYltmTU/PScjYnOz5fKwOGrtC /7G7flHoi8jJ2aOSCYSldDmN9ZBr7F5RfsXEbxIz6qTmJoINK7gx67W2+14TYOtI73PV 1oaLfb+KEfrGezm3LZqfkrRksPi8aq3jxpIIEyjzcc/h2JILMT53LA0ufPKG4Jf/YlTA bOsu/CE9qMLhxNzgrDCmMtMjwzfOyGQ1OV7CeDbbKCg6V4XgZbjgy/DpaZq3j65tvL0B KENGg4h2GFDih+HRrle668BhAgvooGLV3X3tNdlrjkZLxJlDSNGIDD9U4ejQMwwTo5FD Zn4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1697341298; x=1697946098; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=IFLo8WELBQ1iwlNuE96ubiLuuf1ZrA8798urPr2bF4U=; b=YbP7njO6wUigE2vurihatY7m2SvjFTRnp2nCtCRSqkaSLTHdVPR/udwYtbV+8EZqTS LtSDt3ROB4jAqak36jx5W1WKO/r+hsXP3E5nwBbL3Tv6S7DlLfXs4PF7buexqR7cjWAv N12gJSMMSurC6Loabg+68l8XGEgzQo53FKWgBLWex9EvcMdukfkOfFWmNJqAKCXtikI0 h65P2PTi06+2EIJglfO3MzT/u+1Du6mt6WzlaoSQgt+y7ftGLRKo0nDtRsamRyby8Zh4 PRmL/SiO2fi0lPWsh5yFf2llK+LxIBuvSPjGnsQuosCnNGz+s6U5HN+nLq1g1bUVq8+n k8OA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywmka0IN0o+HCja1/EIOH0G/Af20fhmtAGAmimUcKJQ3ecaGzOj a8ToBglBIYsTPg1Yy1mBREPLRU3qQHspTMLyUlw2vdLfH/unPCpa X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHv+ib5WP/LD4r9knzEOsR9rQdWPsbZmQiruXVbwRMOqqrFrt7DItc4ELcj0RZRzG26GlUHNEPo3TzO8p1hFNY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:18:b0:1e9:d261:cc84 with SMTP id a24-20020a056870001800b001e9d261cc84mr6974881oaa.19.1697341298505; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 20:41:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <186FD2C2-68D1-4DB5-901A-78EFDEC4344D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <186FD2C2-68D1-4DB5-901A-78EFDEC4344D@gmail.com> Reply-To: thejoff@mail.com From: le berger des photons Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 05:41:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028fb7b0607b911f1" Subject: Re: [NNagain] transit and peering costs projections X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 03:41:39 -0000 --00000000000028fb7b0607b911f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable as interesting as this all is, this wasn't the discussion I'm looking for. Perhaps you know of somewhere I can go to find what I'm looking for. I'm looking to figure out how to share two different accesses among the same group of clients depending on varying conditions of the main wifi links which serve them all. Thanks for any direction. On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 2:25=E2=80=AFAM Dave Cohen via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > I=E2=80=99m a couple years removed from dealing with this on the provider= side but > the focus has shifted rapidly to adding core capacity and large capacity > ports to the extent that smaller capacity ports like 1 Gbps aren=E2=80=99= t going to > see much more price compression. Cost per bit will come down at higher > tiers but there simply isn=E2=80=99t enough focus at lower levels at the = hardware > providers to afford carriers more price compression at 1 Gbps, even 10 > Gbps. I would expect further price compression in access costs but not > really in transit costs below 10 Gbps. > > In general I agree that IXs continue to proliferate relative to quantity, > throughput and geographic reach, almost to the degree that mainland Europ= e > has been covered for years. In my home market of Atlanta, I=E2=80=99m awa= re of at > least four IXs that have been established here or entered the market in t= he > last three years - there were only two major ones prior to that. This is = a > net positive for a wide variety of reasons but I don=E2=80=99t think it= =E2=80=99s created > much of an impact in terms of pulling down transit prices. There are a fe= w > reasons for this, but primarily because that growth hasn=E2=80=99t really= displaced > transit demand (at least in my view) and has really been more about a > relatively stable set of IX participants creating more resiliency and > driving other performance improvements in that leg of the peering > ecosystem. > > Dave Cohen > craetdave@gmail.com > > > On Oct 14, 2023, at 7:02 PM, Dave Taht via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFThis set of trendlines was very interesting. Unfortunately the= data > > stops in 2015. Does anyone have more recent data? > > > > > https://drpeering.net/white-papers/Internet-Transit-Pricing-Historical-An= d-Projected.php > > > > I believe a gbit circuit that an ISP can resell still runs at about > > $900 - $1.4k (?) in the usa? How about elsewhere? > > > > ... > > > > I am under the impression that many IXPs remain very successful, > > states without them suffer, and I also find the concept of doing micro > > IXPs at the city level, appealing, and now achievable with cheap gear. > > Finer grained cross connects between telco and ISP and IXP would lower > > latencies across town quite hugely... > > > > PS I hear ARIN is planning on dropping the price for, and bundling 3 > > BGP AS numbers at a time, as of the end of this year, also. > > > > > > > > -- > > Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --00000000000028fb7b0607b911f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
as interesting as this all is,=C2=A0 this wasn't the d= iscussion I'm looking for.=C2=A0 Perhaps you know of somewhere I can go= to find what I'm looking for.=C2=A0 I'm looking to figure out how = to share two different accesses among the same group of clients depending o= n varying conditions of the main wifi links which serve them all.=C2=A0 Tha= nks for any direction.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 2:25=E2=80=AFAM Dave Cohe= n via Nnagain <nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I=E2=80=99m a couple years removed from dealing with t= his on the provider side but the focus has shifted rapidly to adding core c= apacity and large capacity ports to the extent that smaller capacity ports = like 1 Gbps aren=E2=80=99t going to see much more price compression. Cost p= er bit will come down at higher tiers but there simply isn=E2=80=99t enough= focus at lower levels at the hardware providers to afford carriers more pr= ice compression at 1 Gbps, even 10 Gbps. I would expect further price compr= ession in access costs but not really in transit costs below 10 Gbps.

In general I agree that IXs continue to proliferate relative to quantity, t= hroughput and geographic reach, almost to the degree that mainland Europe h= as been covered for years. In my home market of Atlanta, I=E2=80=99m aware = of at least four IXs that have been established here or entered the market = in the last three years - there were only two major ones prior to that. Thi= s is a net positive for a wide variety of reasons but I don=E2=80=99t think= it=E2=80=99s created much of an impact in terms of pulling down transit pr= ices. There are a few reasons for this, but primarily because that growth h= asn=E2=80=99t really displaced transit demand (at least in my view) and has= really been more about a relatively stable set of IX participants creating= more resiliency and driving other performance improvements in that leg of = the peering ecosystem.

Dave Cohen
craetdave@gmail.co= m

> On Oct 14, 2023, at 7:02 PM, Dave Taht via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferblo= at.net> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFThis set of trendlines was very interesting. Unfortunately th= e data
> stops in 2015. Does anyone have more recent data?
>
> https:/= /drpeering.net/white-papers/Internet-Transit-Pricing-Historical-And-Project= ed.php
>
> I believe a gbit circuit that an ISP can resell still runs at about > $900 - $1.4k (?) in the usa? How about elsewhere?
>
> ...
>
> I am under the impression that many IXPs remain very successful,
> states without them suffer, and I also find the concept of doing micro=
> IXPs at the city level, appealing, and now achievable with cheap gear.=
> Finer grained cross connects between telco and ISP and IXP would lower=
> latencies across town quite hugely...
>
> PS I hear ARIN is planning on dropping the price for, and bundling 3 > BGP AS numbers at a time, as of the end of this year, also.
>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.= info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nna= gain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
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