From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oo1-xc35.google.com (mail-oo1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEF593B2A4 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 06:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-586a516755aso2246250eaf.0 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 03:04:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1700391865; x=1700996665; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7/xaQuwsHeh9m1yCA3QsFkONmpNwnJgTYJdXgVolzMo=; b=Xi3ZYi+UJL1fJ1f2CInKgpc6oHlXqSzHi7n3L5k5NjOmhQwA4bwdCQoRtiis0lz3fL inxbG9HorbhYgFX77cQdaW27uKXYujtveq8hIoslRyK4TVxJb2D6HIbiX0Adgi9P/RXT 4eP0YLZcvmURBfLsU5YCPcpj3Ikmsq/t52etU3SZ6wfycU6S804ni3BMthfr45AbUbSc afArHTolVZd348h6wA/QkFeyhPK/pi2XvAhO6lIgwMAguhb9nRPjwc/CIdru8urC6O90 ggQKWfZ4rD2NUu8ndg7eTmfT8Q3o/YRc60U+n3DaBw5wkBwIBI6yzL9lAxDiQVF9TLJ2 Inxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700391865; x=1700996665; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=7/xaQuwsHeh9m1yCA3QsFkONmpNwnJgTYJdXgVolzMo=; b=aQWXrLKACro73oXCn7tRjiHcAB44mGKLVPGPAG7y8D94mhZePnonZIl+thb8AiszTP BNuxPugu1qUO692VpyOIf645HIcYzr0Ib2HrHOqXBj17vaQWVHYDLlgmC24c3xOe8MGu htdyb5jiqBkvvmmunvrLZjTRZ2JLrv3F8KIi/KsRubGkWq1xR+yLVXx+mCZO5aFEfBKu g0E+MsiWeIfwx9IiJJYhLhjUcfdNQnncV7qrigx/ORsqhm7KyhtdSQ67PVsOpxKe4to2 FdeBZA1cfeEbP0tljPUsiTE4E6jBwN6JYieh/Mz8qkV6Ow5CyKX7BLjqzFBVqP9kfQFW xUWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yytamj7DABWnZFygR/u3PxreeNaQiC49jeLxiknvzRBdjSimJec W+cEebqFntMqDlL+mfZaDZYYhNRbgK2p+d0/2ElcYNZ5wtzRwg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGVvIH55y9w0urUBliLpsRR7e8Nqcm+lUm9RMEcLPC2UJ/msQMgmBQZomUP4Vz+fWcx2SLF47Maq9pPVJxs4iY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:708:b0:1e9:9546:1dd with SMTP id ea8-20020a056870070800b001e9954601ddmr1598261oab.22.1700391865471; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 03:04:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <647406f6-9895-4b53-8cad-2e3183e8d723@3kitty.org> In-Reply-To: <647406f6-9895-4b53-8cad-2e3183e8d723@3kitty.org> Reply-To: thejoff@mail.com From: le berger des photons Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:04:14 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ed75c060a7f5597" Subject: Re: [NNagain] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 11:04:26 -0000 --0000000000001ed75c060a7f5597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable but you can see if it's doing what you want it to and you can compare it to other products in the same space. On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Jack Haverty via Nnagain < nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On 11/17/23 11:27, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: > > one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized way to > test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if > there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping > and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload > tests. > > > Back when I was involved in operating a network, we tried to track latenc= y > and throughput by standard ping and related tests. We discovered that, i= n > addition to the network conditions, the results were often dependent on t= he > particular equipment and software involved at the time. Some companies > treated ping traffic (e.g., anything directed to the "echo" port) as low > priority since it was obviously (to them) less important than any other > traffic. Others treated such traffic as high priority - it made their > results in review articles look better. > > In another case we discovered one brand of desktop computer was achieved > much higher throughputs over the net than similar products from other > manufacturers. It took some serious technical investigation but we > eventually discovered that the high throughput was achieved by violating > the Ethernet specification. The offending vendor didn't follow the rule= s > about timing. But their test results looked much better than the > competition. > > IMHO the root of the problem is that you can not assume much about what > any software and hardware are doing. There are lots of specs, standards, > and mandates in RFCs or even governmental rules and regulations. But > lacking any kind of testing or certification, it's difficult to tell if > those "standards" are actually being followed. If someone, technical > organization or government regulator, declares or legislates some protoco= l, > algorithm, or behavior to be a required "standard", it should be > accompanied by mechanisms and processes for testing to verify that the > standard is implemented correctly and is actually used, and certification > so that purchasers are informed. > > Jack Haverty > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > --0000000000001ed75c060a7f5597 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
but you can see if it's doing what you want it to and = you can compare it to other products in the same space.

On Fri, Nov 17, 2023= at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Jack Haverty via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 11/17/23 11:27, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized wa=
y to=20
test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if=20
there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping
 and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload=20
tests.

Back when I was involved in operating a network, we tried to track latency and throughput by standard ping and related tests.=C2=A0 We discovered that, in addition to the network conditions, the results were often dependent on the particular equipment and software involved at the time.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some companies treated ping traffic (= e.g., anything directed to the "echo" port) as low priority since i= t was obviously (to them) less important than any other traffic.=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Others treated such traffic as high priority - it made their results in review articles look better.=C2=A0

In another case we discovered one brand of desktop computer was achieved much higher throughputs over the net than similar products from other manufacturers.=C2=A0 It took some serious technical investigation but we eventually discovered that the high throughput was achieved by violating the Ethernet specification.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The offending vendor didn't follow the rules about timing.=C2=A0 But th= eir test results looked much better than the competition.

IMHO the root of the problem is that you can not assume much about what any software and hardware are doing.=C2=A0 There are lots of specs= , standards, and mandates in RFCs or even governmental rules and regulations.=C2=A0 But lacking any kind of testing or certification, it= 's difficult to tell if those "standards" are actually being fol= lowed.=C2=A0 If someone, technical organization or government regulator, declares or legislates some protocol, algorithm, or behavior to be a required "standard", it should be accompanied by mechanisms and proces= ses for testing to verify that the standard is implemented correctly and is actually used, and certification so that purchasers are informed.

Jack Haverty
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@= lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
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