[NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[le berger des photons]

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First I've ever seen the term IXP.  It seems interesting.  Can you point me
to some documentation at a level which only requires the ability to read in
english?  Lots of what I've seen here has initials for things which I
haven't even been able to decode.

I've been connecting 200 families in a 25 km radius to internet via 8 fiber
optic connections for the last 20 years.

I've been thinking of inviting others to participate,  help them get going.

Thinking how it might be useful to provide each client two accesses.  one
to the global internet,  one to a local network which isn't being watched
by big brother.

Does any of this warrant my looking further into IXP technology?

Thanks for your time.

Jay Joffe
The Valley of the Dordogne in s.w. France

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Jan 18, 2024, at 22:51, le berger des photons via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> First I've ever seen the term IXP.  It seems interesting.  Can you point me to some documentation at a level which only requires the ability to read in english?  Lots of what I've seen here has initials for things which I haven't even been able to decode.
> I've been connecting 200 families in a 25 km radius to internet via 8 fiber optic connections for the last 20 years.
> I've been thinking of inviting others to participate,  help them get going.
> Thinking how it might be useful to provide each client two accesses.  one to the global internet,  one to a local network which isn't being watched by big brother.
> Does any of this warrant my looking further into IXP technology?

Hi, Jay.

I’m afraid I’m really bad at getting all this stuff written down, though I know it would be useful.  I am planning to write a doctoral thesis on exactly this topic (the societal and economic impact of Internet exchange points) for Universite Paris 8 next year, but that will need to be a bit more academic than practical, to satisfy, you know, academia.

So, really basically, it sounds like you’re already building an internet exchange.  Internet exchanges are where Internet bandwidth comes from.  Internet service providers bring Internet bandwidth from IXPs to the places where people want to use it: their homes, their offices, their phones.  Internet bandwidth is free _at_ the exchange, but transport costs money.  Speed times distance equals cost.  So the cost of Internet bandwidth is proportional to the speed and the distance from IXPs.  Plus a profit margin for the Internet service provider.

So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user, generally they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, who takes it to an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet service provider, who delivers it to the second user.  When the second user wants to reply, the process is reversed, but the two Internet service providers may choose a different exchange for the hand-off: since each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance (to minimize cost, speed x distance = cost), the first ISP will always choose the IXP that’s nearest the first user, for the hand-off, leaving the second ISP a longer distance to carry the packet.  Then, when their situations are reversed, the second ISP will choose the IXP nearest the second user, leaving the first ISP to carry the packet a longer distance.

This only works (and achieves “fairness”) if there’s an IXP near each of the two users (or they’re both close to the same IXP).  If there’s no IXP close to the second user, they wind up paying for long-haul transport in both directions, and their share of the costs are higher than the first user’s.  So, ISPs (and users) are economically incentivized to build small IXPs all over the place.

IXPs are only maximally effective if they really are free.  If they start running up costs, which have to be defrayed, and placing the burden of those costs on the ISPs which try to use them, then they increase the _average per bit delivery cost_ or APBDC of the bandwidth, making it less affordable, and causing ISPs to seek more affordable bandwidth elsewhere.  So an effective IXP is a cheap IXP.  “Gold plating” IXPs kills them.  Fancy is bad, simple is good.

In the 1990s, there were a diversity of kinds of IXPs…  we were all trying different experiments, and nobody had settled on a single best way of doing it yet.  Then, gradually, it all narrowed down to a single most-efficient model, and all IXPs were an Ethernet switch in a closet, surrounded by BGP routers which had one port facing the switch, and one or a small number of ports facing their ISP’s network.  But in the last ten years or so, things have started to become a little more diverse again, so what you’re doing would probably be recognized as a form of IXP by many people.

Economic compartmentalization is really important in IXPs.  Some people call this “neutrality,” but that’s a difficult word to define, because it means different things to different people.  What’s important is that the IXP is a shared, communal, enterprise, and the group of parties who are collaborating to make it go are often business competitors, which means that they need a very simple system that doesn’t require that they trust each other very much.  So, if it handles money at all, it’s very hard to get over that trust threshold. If it has complicated rules or governance, it has difficulty getting over that trust threshold.  Simple is good.

So, if you’re thinking of making things more complicated (commercial access (“transit”) to the global Internet), that’s fine, and may be exactly the right thing to do, under the circumstances… but you should be very careful to compartmentalize that, and its finances and risks, into a separate entity than the fiber, or the “exchange” or whatever else you’re doing.  Otherwise people will worry that you’re going to use fees from one thing to subsidize another, which will compete with their interests.  That’s not hypothetical, that’s actually one of the most common ways IXPs fail: they lose their neutrality, and lose the trust of their participants, who form a competing exchange nearby, and all move over to it.

All of this is generally easier to explain in a dialog.  I’m in Paris, so happy to chat with you on the phone, if your spoken English is better than my spoken French.

                                -Bill

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Dick Roy]

Bill,

Thabnks for the very cogent explanation of the realities of IXPs.  Awesome!
If you do end up having that virtual chat, I'd love to be a "fly on the
wall" for that! :):):)

Cheers,

RR

-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of
Bill Woodcock via Nnagain
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2024 2:39 PM
To: thejoff@gmail.com; Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical
aspects heard this time!
Cc: Bill Woodcock
Subject: Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

> On Jan 18, 2024, at 22:51, le berger des photons via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> First I've ever seen the term IXP.  It seems interesting.  Can you point
me to some documentation at a level which only requires the ability to read
in english?  Lots of what I've seen here has initials for things which I
haven't even been able to decode.
> I've been connecting 200 families in a 25 km radius to internet via 8
fiber optic connections for the last 20 years.
> I've been thinking of inviting others to participate,  help them get
going.
> Thinking how it might be useful to provide each client two accesses.  one
to the global internet,  one to a local network which isn't being watched by
big brother.
> Does any of this warrant my looking further into IXP technology?

Hi, Jay.

I’m afraid I’m really bad at getting all this stuff written down, though I
know it would be useful.  I am planning to write a doctoral thesis on
exactly this topic (the societal and economic impact of Internet exchange
points) for Universite Paris 8 next year, but that will need to be a bit
more academic than practical, to satisfy, you know, academia.

So, really basically, it sounds like you’re already building an internet
exchange.  Internet exchanges are where Internet bandwidth comes from.
Internet service providers bring Internet bandwidth from IXPs to the places
where people want to use it: their homes, their offices, their phones.
Internet bandwidth is free _at_ the exchange, but transport costs money.
Speed times distance equals cost.  So the cost of Internet bandwidth is
proportional to the speed and the distance from IXPs.  Plus a profit margin
for the Internet service provider.

So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user, generally
they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, who takes it to
an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet service provider, who
delivers it to the second user.  When the second user wants to reply, the
process is reversed, but the two Internet service providers may choose a
different exchange for the hand-off: since each is economically incentivized
to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance (to minimize cost, speed
x distance = cost), the first ISP will always choose the IXP that’s nearest
the first user, for the hand-off, leaving the second ISP a longer distance
to carry the packet.  Then, when their situations are reversed, the second
ISP will choose the IXP nearest the second user, leaving the first ISP to
carry the packet a longer distance.

This only works (and achieves “fairness”) if there’s an IXP near each of the
two users (or they’re both close to the same IXP).  If there’s no IXP close
to the second user, they wind up paying for long-haul transport in both
directions, and their share of the costs are higher than the first user’s.
So, ISPs (and users) are economically incentivized to build small IXPs all
over the place.

IXPs are only maximally effective if they really are free.  If they start
running up costs, which have to be defrayed, and placing the burden of those
costs on the ISPs which try to use them, then they increase the _average per
bit delivery cost_ or APBDC of the bandwidth, making it less affordable, and
causing ISPs to seek more affordable bandwidth elsewhere.  So an effective
IXP is a cheap IXP.  “Gold plating” IXPs kills them.  Fancy is bad, simple
is good.

In the 1990s, there were a diversity of kinds of IXPs…  we were all trying
different experiments, and nobody had settled on a single best way of doing
it yet.  Then, gradually, it all narrowed down to a single most-efficient
model, and all IXPs were an Ethernet switch in a closet, surrounded by BGP
routers which had one port facing the switch, and one or a small number of
ports facing their ISP’s network.  But in the last ten years or so, things
have started to become a little more diverse again, so what you’re doing
would probably be recognized as a form of IXP by many people.

Economic compartmentalization is really important in IXPs.  Some people call
this “neutrality,” but that’s a difficult word to define, because it means
different things to different people.  What’s important is that the IXP is a
shared, communal, enterprise, and the group of parties who are collaborating
to make it go are often business competitors, which means that they need a
very simple system that doesn’t require that they trust each other very
much.  So, if it handles money at all, it’s very hard to get over that trust
threshold. If it has complicated rules or governance, it has difficulty
getting over that trust threshold.  Simple is good.

So, if you’re thinking of making things more complicated (commercial access
(“transit”) to the global Internet), that’s fine, and may be exactly the
right thing to do, under the circumstances… but you should be very careful
to compartmentalize that, and its finances and risks, into a separate entity
than the fiber, or the “exchange” or whatever else you’re doing.  Otherwise
people will worry that you’re going to use fees from one thing to subsidize
another, which will compete with their interests.  That’s not hypothetical,
that’s actually one of the most common ways IXPs fail: they lose their
neutrality, and lose the trust of their participants, who form a competing
exchange nearby, and all move over to it.

All of this is generally easier to explain in a dialog.  I’m in Paris, so
happy to chat with you on the phone, if your spoken English is better than
my spoken French.

                                -Bill

_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 02:56, Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Thabnks for the very cogent explanation of the realities of IXPs.  Awesome!
> If you do end up having that virtual chat, I'd love to be a "fly on the
> wall" for that! :):):)

Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions?  I can get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of IXPs, and can add to my perspective.

Nishal Goburdhan and Sara Alamin have both worked with many IXPs in many places, and I’m sure they’d be happy to join us.  Sara’s based in Dubai, and Nishal in Johannesburg.

                                -Bill

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Dick Roy]

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Count me in!  

 

RR

 

PS.  I’m in California :-):-)

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Woodcock [mailto:woody@pch.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2024 6:14 PM
To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu; Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the
technical aspects heard this time!
Subject: Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

 

 

 

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 02:56, Dick Roy via Nnagain
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Thabnks for the very cogent explanation of the realities of IXPs.
Awesome!

> If you do end up having that virtual chat, I'd love to be a "fly on the

> wall" for that! :):):)

 

Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions?  I can get a
few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of IXPs, and
can add to my perspective.

 

Nishal Goburdhan and Sara Alamin have both worked with many IXPs in many
places, and I’m sure they’d be happy to join us.  Sara’s based in Dubai, and
Nishal in Johannesburg.

 

                                -Bill


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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Dave Crocker]

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On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>   video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions?  I can
> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>   IXPs, and can add to my perspective.

A human IXP, to discuss IXPs?

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
mast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[le berger des photons]

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yes,  I"m interested.  please do.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 4:12 AM Dave Crocker via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>
> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>  video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions?  I can
> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>  IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>
> A human IXP, to discuss IXPs?
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorkingbbiw.netmast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Bill Woodcock]

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> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can 
>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
> 
> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.

Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but perhaps the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the fewest number of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes, start with some background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m mis-reading the room about where people are, let me know, and we could do it later in the day.

Tokyo
Singapore
Mumbai
Dubai
Johannesburg
Paris
London
New York
San Francisco
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 4:00 pm
Mon 1:30 pm
Mon 12:00 noon
Mon 10:00 am
Mon 9:00 am
Mon 8:00 am
Mon 3:00 am
Mon 12:00 midnight
Mon 6:00 pm
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 2:30 pm
Mon 1:00 pm
Mon 11:00 am
Mon 10:00 am
Mon 9:00 am
Mon 4:00 am
Mon 1:00 am
Mon 7:00 pm
Mon 6:00 pm
Mon 3:30 pm
Mon 2:00 pm
Mon 12:00 noon
Mon 11:00 am
Mon 10:00 am
Mon 5:00 am
Mon 2:00 am
Mon 8:00 pm
Mon 7:00 pm
Mon 4:30 pm
Mon 3:00 pm
Mon 1:00 pm
Mon 12:00 noon
Mon 11:00 am
Mon 6:00 am
Mon 3:00 am
Mon 9:00 pm
Mon 8:00 pm
Mon 5:30 pm
Mon 4:00 pm
Mon 2:00 pm
Mon 1:00 pm
Mon 12:00 noon
Mon 7:00 am
Mon 4:00 am
Mon 10:00 pm
Mon 9:00 pm
Mon 6:30 pm
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 3:00 pm
Mon 2:00 pm
Mon 1:00 pm
Mon 8:00 am
Mon 5:00 am
Mon 11:00 pm
Mon 10:00 pm
Mon 7:30 pm
Mon 6:00 pm
Mon 4:00 pm
Mon 3:00 pm
Mon 2:00 pm
Mon 9:00 am
Mon 6:00 am
Tue 12:00 midnight
Mon 11:00 pm
Mon 8:30 pm
Mon 7:00 pm
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 4:00 pm
Mon 3:00 pm
Mon 10:00 am
Mon 7:00 am
Tue 1:00 am
Tue 12:00 midnight
Mon 9:30 pm
Mon 8:00 pm
Mon 6:00 pm
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 4:00 pm
Mon 11:00 am
Mon 8:00 am
Tue 2:00 am
Tue 1:00 am
Mon 10:30 pm
Mon 9:00 pm
Mon 7:00 pm
Mon 6:00 pm
Mon 5:00 pm
Mon 12:00 noon
Mon 9:00 am

                                -Bill


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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Works for me.

All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 at 9:36 AM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>
> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can
> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>
>
> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.
>
>
> Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next
> Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but perhaps
> the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the fewest number
> of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes, start with some
> background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m mis-reading the room
> about where people are, let me know, and we could do it later in the day.
>
> *Tokyo*
>
> *Singapore*
>
> *Mumbai*
>
> *Dubai*
>
> *Johannesburg*
>
> *Paris*
>
> *London*
>
> *New York*
>
> *San Francisco*
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 4:00 pm
>
> Mon 1:30 pm
>
> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 10:00 am
>
> Mon 9:00 am
>
> Mon 8:00 am
>
> Mon 3:00 am
>
> Mon 12:00 midnight
>
> Mon 6:00 pm
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 2:30 pm
>
> Mon 1:00 pm
>
> Mon 11:00 am
>
> Mon 10:00 am
>
> Mon 9:00 am
>
> Mon 4:00 am
>
> Mon 1:00 am
>
> Mon 7:00 pm
>
> Mon 6:00 pm
>
> Mon 3:30 pm
>
> Mon 2:00 pm
>
> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 11:00 am
>
> Mon 10:00 am
>
> Mon 5:00 am
>
> Mon 2:00 am
>
> Mon 8:00 pm
>
> Mon 7:00 pm
>
> Mon 4:30 pm
>
> Mon 3:00 pm
>
> Mon 1:00 pm
>
> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 11:00 am
>
> Mon 6:00 am
>
> Mon 3:00 am
>
> Mon 9:00 pm
>
> Mon 8:00 pm
>
> Mon 5:30 pm
>
> Mon 4:00 pm
>
> Mon 2:00 pm
>
> Mon 1:00 pm
>
> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 7:00 am
>
> Mon 4:00 am
>
> Mon 10:00 pm
>
> Mon 9:00 pm
>
> Mon 6:30 pm
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 3:00 pm
>
> Mon 2:00 pm
>
> Mon 1:00 pm
>
> Mon 8:00 am
>
> Mon 5:00 am
>
> Mon 11:00 pm
>
> Mon 10:00 pm
>
> Mon 7:30 pm
>
> Mon 6:00 pm
>
> Mon 4:00 pm
>
> Mon 3:00 pm
>
> Mon 2:00 pm
>
> Mon 9:00 am
>
> Mon 6:00 am
>
> Tue 12:00 midnight
>
> Mon 11:00 pm
>
> Mon 8:30 pm
>
> Mon 7:00 pm
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 4:00 pm
>
> Mon 3:00 pm
>
> Mon 10:00 am
>
> Mon 7:00 am
>
> Tue 1:00 am
>
> Tue 12:00 midnight
>
> Mon 9:30 pm
>
> Mon 8:00 pm
>
> Mon 6:00 pm
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 4:00 pm
>
> Mon 11:00 am
>
> Mon 8:00 am
>
> Tue 2:00 am
>
> Tue 1:00 am
>
> Mon 10:30 pm
>
> Mon 9:00 pm
>
> Mon 7:00 pm
>
> Mon 6:00 pm
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 9:00 am
>
>                                 -Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Btw, would it be possible to make it a Galene/Zoom link, available to join
in for public, so I can share it to bufferbloat-related, NANOG/NOG, etc
mailing lists?

I believe it would be helpful to awful lot of people!

All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 at 10:01 AM, Frantisek Borsik <
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:

> Works for me.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 at 9:36 AM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>>
>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can
>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>>
>>
>> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.
>>
>>
>> Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next
>> Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but perhaps
>> the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the fewest number
>> of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes, start with some
>> background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m mis-reading the room
>> about where people are, let me know, and we could do it later in the day.
>>
>> *Tokyo*
>>
>> *Singapore*
>>
>> *Mumbai*
>>
>> *Dubai*
>>
>> *Johannesburg*
>>
>> *Paris*
>>
>> *London*
>>
>> *New York*
>>
>> *San Francisco*
>>
>> Mon 5:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 4:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 1:30 pm
>>
>> Mon 12:00 noon
>>
>> Mon 10:00 am
>>
>> Mon 9:00 am
>>
>> Mon 8:00 am
>>
>> Mon 3:00 am
>>
>> Mon 12:00 midnight
>>
>> Mon 6:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 5:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 2:30 pm
>>
>> Mon 1:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 11:00 am
>>
>> Mon 10:00 am
>>
>> Mon 9:00 am
>>
>> Mon 4:00 am
>>
>> Mon 1:00 am
>>
>> Mon 7:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 6:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 3:30 pm
>>
>> Mon 2:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 12:00 noon
>>
>> Mon 11:00 am
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>>                                 -Bill
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[le berger des photons]

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works for me.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:36 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>
> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can
> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>
>
> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.
>
>
> Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next
> Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but perhaps
> the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the fewest number
> of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes, start with some
> background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m mis-reading the room
> about where people are, let me know, and we could do it later in the day.
>
> *Tokyo*
>
> *Singapore*
>
> *Mumbai*
>
> *Dubai*
>
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>
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>
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>                                 -Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[rjmcmahon]

I'm interested too.

Also, curious of how e2e low latency will be monetized amongst such 
systems.

Bob
> works for me.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:36 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain
> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just
>> organize up a
>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I
>> can
>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a
>> lot of
>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
> 
>> 
> 
>> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.
> 
> Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next
> Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but
> perhaps the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the
> fewest number of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes,
> start with some background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m
> mis-reading the room about where people are, let me know, and we could
> do it later in the day.
> 
> Tokyo
> 
> Singapore
> 
> Mumbai
> 
> Dubai
> 
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> 
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> 
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>                                 -Bill
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Joe Williams]

Will it be possible to record it for async watching later?

Thanks!
-Joe


> On Jan 19, 2024, at 1:18 PM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> I'm interested too.
> 
> Also, curious of how e2e low latency will be monetized amongst such systems.
> 
> Bob
>> works for me.
>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:36 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain
>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just
>>> organize up a
>>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I
>>> can
>>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a
>>> lot of
>>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>>> yes,  I"m interested.  please do.
>> Ok.  I just checked with Sara and Nishal, and they can both do it next
>> Monday, the 22nd of January.  I don’t know where everyone is, but
>> perhaps the timeslot outlined in red, below, would inconvenience the
>> fewest number of people the least amount?  Maybe block out 90 minutes,
>> start with some background, and then move into discussion?  If I’m
>> mis-reading the room about where people are, let me know, and we could
>> do it later in the day.
>> Tokyo
>> Singapore
>> Mumbai
>> Dubai
>> Johannesburg
>> Paris
>> London
>> New York
>> San Francisco
>> Mon 5:00 pm
>> Mon 4:00 pm
>> Mon 1:30 pm
>> Mon 12:00 noon
>> Mon 10:00 am
>> Mon 9:00 am
>> Mon 8:00 am
>> Mon 3:00 am
>> Mon 12:00 midnight
>> Mon 6:00 pm
>> Mon 5:00 pm
>> Mon 2:30 pm
>> Mon 1:00 pm
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>> Mon 9:00 am
>>                                -Bill
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Bill Woodcock]

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> On Jan 19, 2024, at 09:36, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can 
>>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.

Ok…  Normally we do things on our own Jitsi server, but since we don’t really have a sense of how many folks will show up for this, we decided to do it on Zoom.

https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1
Or Zoom Meeting ID 861 3112 9506 and passcode 777245.

11pm Singapore, 4pm CET, 3pm UTC, 10am US east, 7am US west.

There was a question as to whether it will be recorded and whether it can be shared…  Yes, everything PCH does is under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial license.  I’ll try to make sure that we record and post the video.

We’ll try to cover the diversity of ways IXPs get started, governed, and grow, best-practices, and leave plenty of time for Q&A / discussion.  

Jay’s original question, regarding how an IXP would interact with a rural community fiber network of 200 families in a 25km radius, provides a useful starting-point for the conversation.  For reference, his network is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu
Dordogne · France
google.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne
Dordogne
en.wikipedia.org

https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24

https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/
Behind the Dordogne’s right turn
politico.eu

It has an average population density of 46 people per square kilometer, spread over 9,000 square kilometers, and the ten largest towns range from 4,000 to 30,000 in population.  GDPPP is EUR 26,000.  25% of the population is under 30 years old.  There are 400,000 people in 190,000 households, or 2.1 people per household.

This compares with density of 118 per Km^2, GDPPP of EUR 40,000, and 35% under age 30 for France overall, and density of 20,000 per Km^2, GDPPP of EUR 65,000, and 38% under 30 for Paris.  So, the region has far lower density than average, less money, and people are older on average.  Politics are more right-wing, and the sense (generally correct) in most of France is that significant infrastructure projects are reserved for Paris, while the rest of the country limps along behind at some years of remove.

A typical town looks like this:



Five hundred people spread in a 500m radius around a road intersection, with neighboring similar-sized towns three or four kilometers down each of those roads in a relatively dense mesh.

If Jay’s 25km estimate is accurate, that means his network is covering 20% of the region.  If the population were spread evenly, that would be 80,000 people within his service region, in 38,000 households.  The fact that he mentions 200 families suggests to me that his network is in parts of Dordogne that are more rural than average, since it would be very difficult to maintain a network at only half-a-percent of homes passed.  So I’m guessing it doesn’t include any of those towns of thousands of people, and is mostly made up of farms and the more typical villages of hundred, or hamlets of dozens of people.

There are no IXPs currently in Dordogne.  In France, there are seventeen IXes, with five in Paris and two in Marseille.  The nearest IXPs to Dordogne are seven peers in Pau, 260km to the SSW, and thirteen peers in Toulouse, 200km to the SSE.  The dense peering of Paris and Marseille are each 500km away, in different directions. 

As a point of comparison, my family is from Montana, a similarly rural area of the U.S., with a population density of 2.7 per square kilometer, GDPPP of $45k (EUR 42,000), with towns spaced more like 25km apart.  Montana has two IXPs, and is 1,800km from the larger IXPs of Chicago and the San Francisco Bay Area, and 1,300km from Seattle.  I mention this because people frequently think “no, the population density is too low where I live, I have to backhaul to a big city far away."

Anyway, we look forward to seeing whoever can make it on the call tomorrow.  Bring your questions and arguments!  :-)

                                -Bill


Tokyo
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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[le berger des photons]

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Damn!  I slept through it,  wasn't careful enough, thought it was 4 p.m.
usa time.  I hope you recorded it.

thanks,

Jay

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 12:14 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 09:36, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
>
> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>
> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can
> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>
>
> Ok…  Normally we do things on our own Jitsi server, but since we don’t
> really have a sense of how many folks will show up for this, we decided to
> do it on Zoom.
>
> Join our Cloud HD Video Meeting
> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
> us06web.zoom.us
> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
> [image: zoom.ico]
> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
>
> Or Zoom Meeting ID 861 3112 9506 and passcode 777245.
>
> 11pm Singapore, 4pm CET, 3pm UTC, 10am US east, 7am US west.
>
> There was a question as to whether it will be recorded and whether it can
> be shared…  Yes, everything PCH does is under a Creative Commons
> Attribution Non-Commercial license.  I’ll try to make sure that we record
> and post the video.
>
> We’ll try to cover the diversity of ways IXPs get started, governed, and
> grow, best-practices, and leave plenty of time for Q&A / discussion.
>
> Jay’s original question, regarding how an IXP would interact with a rural
> community fiber network of 200 families in a 25km radius, provides a useful
> starting-point for the conversation.  For reference, his network is here:
>
> [image: AF1QipPyZ6Fk7ZzK9a8266YqxOjq0nKhIwhIjjAID3UA=w900-h900-k-no-p.jpeg]
>
> Dordogne · France
> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
> google.com
> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
>
> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
>
> [image: 1200px-Périgueux_préfecture_(2).JPG]
>
> Dordogne <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
> en.wikipedia.org <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
>
> Household income and poverty in 2019 − Localised disposable income system
> (FiLoSoFi) – Results for all municipalities, departments, regions,
> intermunicipal authorities ...
> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
> insee.fr <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
> [image: favicon.ico]
> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
>
> [image: GettyImages-174602127-scaled.jpg]
>
> Behind the Dordogne’s right turn
> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
> politico.eu
> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
>
> It has an average population density of 46 people per square kilometer,
> spread over 9,000 square kilometers, and the ten largest towns range from
> 4,000 to 30,000 in population.  GDPPP is EUR 26,000.  25% of the population
> is under 30 years old.  There are 400,000 people in 190,000 households, or
> 2.1 people per household.
>
> This compares with density of 118 per Km^2, GDPPP of EUR 40,000, and 35%
> under age 30 for France overall, and density of 20,000 per Km^2, GDPPP of
> EUR 65,000, and 38% under 30 for Paris.  So, the region has far lower
> density than average, less money, and people are older on average.
> Politics are more right-wing, and the sense (generally correct) in most of
> France is that significant infrastructure projects are reserved for Paris,
> while the rest of the country limps along behind at some years of remove.
>
> A typical town looks like this:
>
> [image: PastedGraphic-1.png]
>
> Five hundred people spread in a 500m radius around a road intersection,
> with neighboring similar-sized towns three or four kilometers down each of
> those roads in a relatively dense mesh.
>
> If Jay’s 25km estimate is accurate, that means his network is covering 20%
> of the region.  If the population were spread evenly, that would be 80,000
> people within his service region, in 38,000 households.  The fact that he
> mentions 200 families suggests to me that his network is in parts of
> Dordogne that are more rural than average, since it would be very difficult
> to maintain a network at only half-a-percent of homes passed.  So I’m
> guessing it doesn’t include any of those towns of thousands of people, and
> is mostly made up of farms and the more typical villages of hundred, or
> hamlets of dozens of people.
>
> There are no IXPs currently in Dordogne.  In France, there are seventeen
> IXes, with five in Paris and two in Marseille.  The nearest IXPs to
> Dordogne are seven peers in Pau, 260km to the SSW, and thirteen peers in
> Toulouse, 200km to the SSE.  The dense peering of Paris and Marseille are
> each 500km away, in different directions.
>
> As a point of comparison, my family is from Montana, a similarly rural
> area of the U.S., with a population density of 2.7 per square kilometer,
> GDPPP of $45k (EUR 42,000), with towns spaced more like 25km apart.
> Montana has two IXPs, and is 1,800km from the larger IXPs of Chicago and
> the San Francisco Bay Area, and 1,300km from Seattle.  I mention this
> because people frequently think “no, the population density is too low
> where I live, I have to backhaul to a big city far away."
>
> Anyway, we look forward to seeing whoever can make it on the call
> tomorrow.  Bring your questions and arguments!  :-)
>
>                                 -Bill
>
>
> *Tokyo*
>
> *Singapore*
>
> *Mumbai*
>
> *Dubai*
>
> *Johannesburg*
>
> *Paris*
>
> *London*
>
> *New York*
>
> *San Francisco*
>
> Mon 5:00 pm
>
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>
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> Mon 12:00 noon
>
> Mon 9:00 am
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Yeah, Bill will share the recording.

All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 at 10:07 AM, le berger des photons via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Damn!  I slept through it,  wasn't careful enough, thought it was 4 p.m.
> usa time.  I hope you recorded it.
>
> thanks,
>
> Jay
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 12:14 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 09:36, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 05:38, le berger des photons via Nnagain wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 6:14 PM, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain wrote:
>>
>> Do y’all (meaning folks on the list generally) want to just organize up a
>> video-call, to talk about how IXPs work, and address questions? I can
>> get a few of my other staff on the call, who’ve also dealt with a lot of
>> IXPs, and can add to my perspective.
>>
>>
>> Ok…  Normally we do things on our own Jitsi server, but since we don’t
>> really have a sense of how many folks will show up for this, we decided to
>> do it on Zoom.
>>
>> Join our Cloud HD Video Meeting
>> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
>> us06web.zoom.us
>> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
>> [image: zoom.ico]
>> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
>> <https://us06web.zoom.us/j/86131129506?pwd=PlhHgU24uezoTavCWTSP9N0hzpTyEC.1>
>>
>> Or Zoom Meeting ID 861 3112 9506 and passcode 777245.
>>
>> 11pm Singapore, 4pm CET, 3pm UTC, 10am US east, 7am US west.
>>
>> There was a question as to whether it will be recorded and whether it can
>> be shared…  Yes, everything PCH does is under a Creative Commons
>> Attribution Non-Commercial license.  I’ll try to make sure that we record
>> and post the video.
>>
>> We’ll try to cover the diversity of ways IXPs get started, governed, and
>> grow, best-practices, and leave plenty of time for Q&A / discussion.
>>
>> Jay’s original question, regarding how an IXP would interact with a rural
>> community fiber network of 200 families in a 25km radius, provides a useful
>> starting-point for the conversation.  For reference, his network is here:
>>
>> [image:
>> AF1QipPyZ6Fk7ZzK9a8266YqxOjq0nKhIwhIjjAID3UA=w900-h900-k-no-p.jpeg]
>>
>> Dordogne · France
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
>> google.com
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
>>
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dordogne,+France/@46.563077,-2.2371537,6z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ff7a7475a8138b:0x3066517481126e0!8m2!3d45.1469486!4d0.7572205!16zL20vMGM4MnM?entry=ttu>
>>
>> [image: 1200px-Périgueux_préfecture_(2).JPG]
>>
>> Dordogne <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
>> en.wikipedia.org <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dordogne>
>>
>> Household income and poverty in 2019 − Localised disposable income system
>> (FiLoSoFi) – Results for all municipalities, departments, regions,
>> intermunicipal authorities ...
>> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
>> insee.fr <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
>> [image: favicon.ico]
>> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
>> <https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/6455956?geo=DEP-24>
>>
>> [image: GettyImages-174602127-scaled.jpg]
>>
>> Behind the Dordogne’s right turn
>> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
>> politico.eu
>> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
>> <https://www.politico.eu/article/behind-the-dordognes-right-turn/>
>>
>> It has an average population density of 46 people per square kilometer,
>> spread over 9,000 square kilometers, and the ten largest towns range from
>> 4,000 to 30,000 in population.  GDPPP is EUR 26,000.  25% of the population
>> is under 30 years old.  There are 400,000 people in 190,000 households, or
>> 2.1 people per household.
>>
>> This compares with density of 118 per Km^2, GDPPP of EUR 40,000, and 35%
>> under age 30 for France overall, and density of 20,000 per Km^2, GDPPP of
>> EUR 65,000, and 38% under 30 for Paris.  So, the region has far lower
>> density than average, less money, and people are older on average.
>> Politics are more right-wing, and the sense (generally correct) in most of
>> France is that significant infrastructure projects are reserved for Paris,
>> while the rest of the country limps along behind at some years of remove.
>>
>> A typical town looks like this:
>>
>> [image: PastedGraphic-1.png]
>>
>> Five hundred people spread in a 500m radius around a road intersection,
>> with neighboring similar-sized towns three or four kilometers down each of
>> those roads in a relatively dense mesh.
>>
>> If Jay’s 25km estimate is accurate, that means his network is covering
>> 20% of the region.  If the population were spread evenly, that would be
>> 80,000 people within his service region, in 38,000 households.  The fact
>> that he mentions 200 families suggests to me that his network is in parts
>> of Dordogne that are more rural than average, since it would be very
>> difficult to maintain a network at only half-a-percent of homes passed.  So
>> I’m guessing it doesn’t include any of those towns of thousands of people,
>> and is mostly made up of farms and the more typical villages of hundred, or
>> hamlets of dozens of people.
>>
>> There are no IXPs currently in Dordogne.  In France, there are seventeen
>> IXes, with five in Paris and two in Marseille.  The nearest IXPs to
>> Dordogne are seven peers in Pau, 260km to the SSW, and thirteen peers in
>> Toulouse, 200km to the SSE.  The dense peering of Paris and Marseille are
>> each 500km away, in different directions.
>>
>> As a point of comparison, my family is from Montana, a similarly rural
>> area of the U.S., with a population density of 2.7 per square kilometer,
>> GDPPP of $45k (EUR 42,000), with towns spaced more like 25km apart.
>> Montana has two IXPs, and is 1,800km from the larger IXPs of Chicago and
>> the San Francisco Bay Area, and 1,300km from Seattle.  I mention this
>> because people frequently think “no, the population density is too low
>> where I live, I have to backhaul to a big city far away."
>>
>> Anyway, we look forward to seeing whoever can make it on the call
>> tomorrow.  Bring your questions and arguments!  :-)
>>
>>                                 -Bill
>>
>>
>> *Tokyo*
>>
>> *Singapore*
>>
>> *Mumbai*
>>
>> *Dubai*
>>
>> *Johannesburg*
>>
>> *Paris*
>>
>> *London*
>>
>> *New York*
>>
>> *San Francisco*
>>
>> Mon 5:00 pm
>>
>> Mon 4:00 pm
>>
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>>
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>> Mon 12:00 noon
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>> Mon 9:00 am
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Bill,

thank you for this great explanation.

> On 18. Jan 2024, at 23:38, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2024, at 22:51, le berger des photons via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> First I've ever seen the term IXP.  It seems interesting.  Can you point me to some documentation at a level which only requires the ability to read in english?  Lots of what I've seen here has initials for things which I haven't even been able to decode.
>> I've been connecting 200 families in a 25 km radius to internet via 8 fiber optic connections for the last 20 years.
>> I've been thinking of inviting others to participate,  help them get going.
>> Thinking how it might be useful to provide each client two accesses.  one to the global internet,  one to a local network which isn't being watched by big brother.
>> Does any of this warrant my looking further into IXP technology?
> 
> Hi, Jay.
> 
> I’m afraid I’m really bad at getting all this stuff written down, though I know it would be useful.  I am planning to write a doctoral thesis on exactly this topic (the societal and economic impact of Internet exchange points) for Universite Paris 8 next year, but that will need to be a bit more academic than practical, to satisfy, you know, academia.
> 
> So, really basically, it sounds like you’re already building an internet exchange.  Internet exchanges are where Internet bandwidth comes from.  Internet service providers bring Internet bandwidth from IXPs to the places where people want to use it: their homes, their offices, their phones.  Internet bandwidth is free _at_ the exchange, but transport costs money.  Speed times distance equals cost.  So the cost of Internet bandwidth is proportional to the speed and the distance from IXPs.  Plus a profit margin for the Internet service provider.
> 
> So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user, generally they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, who takes it to an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet service provider, who delivers it to the second user.  When the second user wants to reply, the process is reversed, but the two Internet service providers may choose a different exchange for the hand-off: since each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance (to minimize cost, speed x distance = cost), the first ISP will always choose the IXP that’s nearest the first user, for the hand-off, leaving the second ISP a longer distance to carry the packet.  Then, when their situations are reversed, the second ISP will choose the IXP nearest the second user, leaving the first ISP to carry the packet a longer distance.
> [...]

I would propose a slight modification, "each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance" is not free of assumptions... namely that the shortest path is the cheapest path, which is not universally true. My personal take is "routing follows cost" that is it is money in the end that steers routing decisions not distance... (sure often shortest is also cheapest, but it is simply not guaranteed, at least once we include paid peering and transit into the equation). Most end-users would actually prefer shortest distance...

Case in point, my ISP aggregates its customers in a handful of locations in Germany, Hamburg in my case while I actually live a bit closer to Frankfurt than Hamburg, so all traffic first goes to Hamburg even traffic to Frankfurt (resulting in a 500-600 Km detour), I assume they do this for economic reasons and not just out of spite ;) 

Now, maybe the important point is, this does not involve IXPs so might be an orange to the IXP apple?

Regards & Thanks again
	Sebastian

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Jan 19, 2024, at 08:14, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
>> On 18. Jan 2024, at 23:38, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user, generally they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, who takes it to an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet service provider, who delivers it to the second user.  When the second user wants to reply, the process is reversed, but the two Internet service providers may choose a different exchange for the hand-off: since each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance (to minimize cost, speed x distance = cost), the first ISP will always choose the IXP that’s nearest the first user, for the hand-off, leaving the second ISP a longer distance to carry the packet.  Then, when their situations are reversed, the second ISP will choose the IXP nearest the second user, leaving the first ISP to carry the packet a longer distance.
> 
> I would propose a slight modification, "each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance" is not free of assumptions... namely that the shortest path is the cheapest path, which is not universally true.

Correct.  That’s a simplification of a complex field where distance and cost are frequently intermingled, and routing decisions are typically based on latency, overridden by cost as a matter of policy.  However, in a simplified or idealized case, if speed is held constant, distance and cost scale together, so they are usually held to be interchangeable in decision-making in the general case.  Speed x distance = cost.

> My personal take is "routing follows cost" that is it is money in the end that steers routing decisions

Yes, exactly.

The primary case in which routes follow a cost that differs from distance is in the preference for distant downstream transit over nearby peers, and distant peers over nearby upstream transit.  Though it’s uncommon in networks of small geographic scale, most global-scale networks do this, and it’s the cause of many routing problems and loops.

> ...at least once we include paid peering...

That’s a marketing euphemism for transit.

> My ISP aggregates its customers in a handful of locations in Germany, Hamburg in my case while I actually live a bit closer to Frankfurt than Hamburg, so all traffic first goes to Hamburg even traffic to Frankfurt (resulting in a 500-600 Km detour), I assume they do this for economic reasons and not just out of spite ;) 

Essentially all mobile network operators do this.  It’s generally a matter of incompetence and lack of competition, rather than spite or economic reasons.

> Now, maybe the important point is, this does not involve IXPs so might be an orange to the IXP apple?

Yes, only indirectly.  Most of what you’re discussing involves non-optimal outbound IXP selection, one quarter of the round-trip path.  Very real issues, but not anything an IXP or receiving-side ISP can do much about without second-guessing routing decisions to an impractical degree.

                                -Bill

Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock?

[Frantisek Borsik]

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Looking forward to join the upcoming IXP chat, Bill!

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

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On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 8:26 AM Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jan 19, 2024, at 08:14, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
> >> On 18. Jan 2024, at 23:38, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user,
> generally they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, who
> takes it to an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet service
> provider, who delivers it to the second user.  When the second user wants
> to reply, the process is reversed, but the two Internet service providers
> may choose a different exchange for the hand-off: since each is
> economically incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible
> distance (to minimize cost, speed x distance = cost), the first ISP will
> always choose the IXP that’s nearest the first user, for the hand-off,
> leaving the second ISP a longer distance to carry the packet.  Then, when
> their situations are reversed, the second ISP will choose the IXP nearest
> the second user, leaving the first ISP to carry the packet a longer
> distance.
> >
> > I would propose a slight modification, "each is economically
> incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance" is not
> free of assumptions... namely that the shortest path is the cheapest path,
> which is not universally true.
>
> Correct.  That’s a simplification of a complex field where distance and
> cost are frequently intermingled, and routing decisions are typically based
> on latency, overridden by cost as a matter of policy.  However, in a
> simplified or idealized case, if speed is held constant, distance and cost
> scale together, so they are usually held to be interchangeable in
> decision-making in the general case.  Speed x distance = cost.
>
> > My personal take is "routing follows cost" that is it is money in the
> end that steers routing decisions
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
> The primary case in which routes follow a cost that differs from distance
> is in the preference for distant downstream transit over nearby peers, and
> distant peers over nearby upstream transit.  Though it’s uncommon in
> networks of small geographic scale, most global-scale networks do this, and
> it’s the cause of many routing problems and loops.
>
> > ...at least once we include paid peering...
>
> That’s a marketing euphemism for transit.
>
> > My ISP aggregates its customers in a handful of locations in Germany,
> Hamburg in my case while I actually live a bit closer to Frankfurt than
> Hamburg, so all traffic first goes to Hamburg even traffic to Frankfurt
> (resulting in a 500-600 Km detour), I assume they do this for economic
> reasons and not just out of spite ;)
>
> Essentially all mobile network operators do this.  It’s generally a matter
> of incompetence and lack of competition, rather than spite or economic
> reasons.
>
> > Now, maybe the important point is, this does not involve IXPs so might
> be an orange to the IXP apple?
>
> Yes, only indirectly.  Most of what you’re discussing involves non-optimal
> outbound IXP selection, one quarter of the round-trip path.  Very real
> issues, but not anything an IXP or receiving-side ISP can do much about
> without second-guessing routing decisions to an impractical degree.
>
>                                 -Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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