[NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990]

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>
> Hello Dr. David.


The gravity at the surface of the Moon is larger than might be expected
since the volume to radius ratio is as r squared, so that with a difference
of 100 times that is a factor of 100x in gravity at surface we can predict
that the rocks they'll be throwing at us we'll be falling up that is thrown
out of the gravity wall for 1/10 the trip roughly and falling down that is
falling into that gravity well for 9/10 of the trip causing an overall
Factor of enormous acceleration. Offhand I would say the process would
achieve 80% of escape velocity.

The Australian science agency has a nice chart out for asteroid type
objects on their website. It summarizes the relationship between the many
many small rocks which are in our system and the very few large rocks which
accompany them as they move at various speeds knowing only statistical
information about how many rocks of which size and how fast they're moving
and what energy the net result is

They quote figures of atta joules. So once given the upward that is towards
the Earth impetus a mere Boulder could do really significant damage
assuming that the transit time could be controlled carefully in their was
either accurate aiming or some type of midcourse correction to get the
target secured.

Trying to find my way back on topic to Net neutrality. Maybe a moon base
could be set up with a transmitter powered by a small nuclear reactor
receiving signals from Earth and retransmitting them to make the
connections for data and voice. Compared to lofting a satellite having the
time to construct such an item on the surface of the Moon would be
advantageous the way it seems to me. I'm pretty sure that a satellite would
have to be put into place in orbit with its power supply and all that and
that's what starling does bloody bloody blah.

By the way I'm running for president.
/ / < GONCZ2028 > /


Cheers
Doug




>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ...
> >
> > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next
> four
> > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
> > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035 (which
> > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
> > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
> > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well....

>
>
>
>

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Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[David Bray, PhD]

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Aye, with a rail gun (either solar powered with significant battery
reserves or hydrogen powered should we finally get to a source of water on
the Moon) to help with the initial acceleration, it does make a Moon base a
challenging.

For the Moon, there is a slight lag effect so for near real-time comms, LEO
(or VLEO) is much better, however if one is looking for data centers on the
Moon and can build them with dust-resistant solid state parts (astronauts
who went to the Moon report the Moon dust getting everywhere) that becomes
interesting… and raises fun questions that I have been asking since 2017
with different audiences to gauge their answers:

* a financial transaction resulting in a net monetary gain happens on a
data center on the Moon, who pays - if anyone - any tax applications?

* using a lunar 3D printer and other fabrication processes, the chassis for
a satellite is printed and the satellite ultimately assembled out of
multiple parts. The satellite is then launched from the Moon, what is the
listed “flag” or country of origin for the launched satellite?

* if a permanent Moon base is established on the surface of the Moon
looking back at Earth, how many countries and/or companies have encrypted
their ground-to-orbit satellite communications to prevent them from being
received by a Moon base that’s also looking directly at Earth as the Earth
revolves and the Moon completes its orbit?

Moon in the middle (well to be more accurate, Moon overhead) RF attacks
anyone?

*David Bray, PhD *Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc.
<https://www.leaddoadapt.com/>
Chair of the Accelerator <https://napawash.org/fellow/305629> & Distinguished
Fellow
<https://www.cxotalk.com/bio/dr-david-bray-distinguished-fellow-stimson-center>
, Stimson Center <https://www.stimson.org/ppl/david-bray/>
Senior Fellow <https://www.ihmc.us/groups/david-bray/>, Inst. for
Human-Machine Cognition <https://www.ihmc.us/> & Expert, MIT Horizon
<https://horizon.mit.edu/>

On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 08:41 Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990 via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hello Dr. David.
>
>
> The gravity at the surface of the Moon is larger than might be expected
> since the volume to radius ratio is as r squared, so that with a difference
> of 100 times that is a factor of 100x in gravity at surface we can predict
> that the rocks they'll be throwing at us we'll be falling up that is thrown
> out of the gravity wall for 1/10 the trip roughly and falling down that is
> falling into that gravity well for 9/10 of the trip causing an overall
> Factor of enormous acceleration. Offhand I would say the process would
> achieve 80% of escape velocity.
>
> The Australian science agency has a nice chart out for asteroid type
> objects on their website. It summarizes the relationship between the many
> many small rocks which are in our system and the very few large rocks which
> accompany them as they move at various speeds knowing only statistical
> information about how many rocks of which size and how fast they're moving
> and what energy the net result is
>
> They quote figures of atta joules. So once given the upward that is
> towards the Earth impetus a mere Boulder could do really significant damage
> assuming that the transit time could be controlled carefully in their was
> either accurate aiming or some type of midcourse correction to get the
> target secured.
>
> Trying to find my way back on topic to Net neutrality. Maybe a moon base
> could be set up with a transmitter powered by a small nuclear reactor
> receiving signals from Earth and retransmitting them to make the
> connections for data and voice. Compared to lofting a satellite having the
> time to construct such an item on the surface of the Moon would be
> advantageous the way it seems to me. I'm pretty sure that a satellite would
> have to be put into place in orbit with its power supply and all that and
> that's what starling does bloody bloody blah.
>
> By the way I'm running for president.
> / / < GONCZ2028 > /
>
>
> Cheers
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> >
>> > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next
>> four
>> > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
>> > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035
>> (which
>> > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
>> > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
>> > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well....
>
> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[le berger des photons]

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you seem dazed and confused enough to be president.

On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 1:41 PM Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990 via
Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hello Dr. David.
>
>
> The gravity at the surface of the Moon is larger than might be expected
> since the volume to radius ratio is as r squared, so that with a difference
> of 100 times that is a factor of 100x in gravity at surface we can predict
> that the rocks they'll be throwing at us we'll be falling up that is thrown
> out of the gravity wall for 1/10 the trip roughly and falling down that is
> falling into that gravity well for 9/10 of the trip causing an overall
> Factor of enormous acceleration. Offhand I would say the process would
> achieve 80% of escape velocity.
>
> The Australian science agency has a nice chart out for asteroid type
> objects on their website. It summarizes the relationship between the many
> many small rocks which are in our system and the very few large rocks which
> accompany them as they move at various speeds knowing only statistical
> information about how many rocks of which size and how fast they're moving
> and what energy the net result is
>
> They quote figures of atta joules. So once given the upward that is
> towards the Earth impetus a mere Boulder could do really significant damage
> assuming that the transit time could be controlled carefully in their was
> either accurate aiming or some type of midcourse correction to get the
> target secured.
>
> Trying to find my way back on topic to Net neutrality. Maybe a moon base
> could be set up with a transmitter powered by a small nuclear reactor
> receiving signals from Earth and retransmitting them to make the
> connections for data and voice. Compared to lofting a satellite having the
> time to construct such an item on the surface of the Moon would be
> advantageous the way it seems to me. I'm pretty sure that a satellite would
> have to be put into place in orbit with its power supply and all that and
> that's what starling does bloody bloody blah.
>
> By the way I'm running for president.
> / / < GONCZ2028 > /
>
>
> Cheers
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> >
>> > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next
>> four
>> > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
>> > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035
>> (which
>> > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
>> > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
>> > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well....
>
> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[Sebastian Moeller]

> On 17. Mar 2025, at 13:41, Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990 via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hello Dr. David.
> 
> The gravity at the surface of the Moon is larger than might be expected since the volume to radius ratio is as r squared, so that with a difference of 100 times that is a factor of 100x in gravity at surface we can predict that the rocks they'll be throwing at us we'll be falling up that is thrown out of the gravity wall for 1/10 the trip roughly and falling down that is falling into that gravity well for 9/10 of the trip causing an overall Factor of enormous acceleration. Offhand I would say the process would achieve 80% of escape velocity.
> 
> The Australian science agency has a nice chart out for asteroid type objects on their website. It summarizes the relationship between the many many small rocks which are in our system and the very few large rocks which accompany them as they move at various speeds knowing only statistical information about how many rocks of which size and how fast they're moving and what energy the net result is 
> 
> They quote figures of atta joules. So once given the upward that is towards the Earth impetus a mere Boulder could do really significant damage assuming that the transit time could be controlled carefully in their was either accurate aiming or some type of midcourse correction to get the target secured.
> 
> Trying to find my way back on topic to Net neutrality. Maybe a moon base could be set up with a transmitter powered by a small nuclear reactor

Mmmh, radionuclear power generation seems realistic, a nuclear reactor less so, given that you somehow need to dispose of waste heat eventually and vacuum ist a good isolator... then again, for a sufficiently large moon base you might actually want a heating source to make up for the radiative heat loss.

That said, you know what they say about the moon being a harsh mistress, eh?


> receiving signals from Earth and retransmitting them to make the connections for data and voice. Compared to lofting a satellite having the time to construct such an item on the surface of the Moon would be advantageous the way it seems to me. I'm pretty sure that a satellite would have to be put into place in orbit with its power supply and all that and that's what starling does bloody bloody blah.
> 
> By the way I'm running for president. 
> / / < GONCZ2028 > /
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> >
> > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next four
> > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before the
> > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035 (which
> > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
> > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the general
> > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well....
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[David Bray, PhD]

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100% Sebastian about the Moon Is a Harsh Mistress - and glad to see someone
else read that great book.

I'd go for burning hydrogen - not hydrogen fusion - if we can extract water
from the Moon with solar power as the initial kick-starter. We will need
the hydrogen for future rockets launched from the Moon's lower gravity to
Mars and beyond too...


On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 10:01 AM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On 17. Mar 2025, at 13:41, Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990 via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Dr. David.
> >
> > The gravity at the surface of the Moon is larger than might be expected
> since the volume to radius ratio is as r squared, so that with a difference
> of 100 times that is a factor of 100x in gravity at surface we can predict
> that the rocks they'll be throwing at us we'll be falling up that is thrown
> out of the gravity wall for 1/10 the trip roughly and falling down that is
> falling into that gravity well for 9/10 of the trip causing an overall
> Factor of enormous acceleration. Offhand I would say the process would
> achieve 80% of escape velocity.
> >
> > The Australian science agency has a nice chart out for asteroid type
> objects on their website. It summarizes the relationship between the many
> many small rocks which are in our system and the very few large rocks which
> accompany them as they move at various speeds knowing only statistical
> information about how many rocks of which size and how fast they're moving
> and what energy the net result is
> >
> > They quote figures of atta joules. So once given the upward that is
> towards the Earth impetus a mere Boulder could do really significant damage
> assuming that the transit time could be controlled carefully in their was
> either accurate aiming or some type of midcourse correction to get the
> target secured.
> >
> > Trying to find my way back on topic to Net neutrality. Maybe a moon base
> could be set up with a transmitter powered by a small nuclear reactor
>
> Mmmh, radionuclear power generation seems realistic, a nuclear reactor
> less so, given that you somehow need to dispose of waste heat eventually
> and vacuum ist a good isolator... then again, for a sufficiently large moon
> base you might actually want a heating source to make up for the radiative
> heat loss.
>
> That said, you know what they say about the moon being a harsh mistress,
> eh?
>
>
> > receiving signals from Earth and retransmitting them to make the
> connections for data and voice. Compared to lofting a satellite having the
> time to construct such an item on the surface of the Moon would be
> advantageous the way it seems to me. I'm pretty sure that a satellite would
> have to be put into place in orbit with its power supply and all that and
> that's what starling does bloody bloody blah.
> >
> > By the way I'm running for president.
> > / / < GONCZ2028 > /
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> > Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, 10:04 AM David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > >
> > > Meanwhile China probably will land humans on the moon within the next
> four
> > > years of whomever is the next U.S. President. That may happen before
> the
> > > U.S. returns to the Moon. Either way, a "base" on the Moon by 2035
> (which
> > > is PRC's goal) even if it's robots - or humans with the risk of loss of
> > > life) raises some challenges in terms of SIGINT, GEOINT, and the
> general
> > > ability to hurl rocks into Earth's gravity well....
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list
> > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[David Lang]

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David Bray wrote:

> I'd go for burning hydrogen - not hydrogen fusion - if we can extract water
> from the Moon with solar power as the initial kick-starter. We will need
> the hydrogen for future rockets launched from the Moon's lower gravity to
> Mars and beyond too...

I think water is better used for people than for burning. There isn't that much 
of it out there.

There are times you need the high thrust, but if you can use electricity 
instead, it's better in the long run (and on the moon, with 14 day 'nights' I 
think nuclear will win

burning hycrogen may be needed for landings and maneuvering, but use magnetics 
for launching.

David Lang

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_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[David Bray, PhD]

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The latest missions suggest water is all over the Moon and not that rare -
https://dailygalaxy.com/2024/09/scientists-confirm-water-all-over-the-moon/

Unfortunately we cancelled the VIPER effort
https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa-ends-viper-project-continues-moon-exploration/
... and Athena crashed
https://www.yahoo.com/news/intuitive-machines-athena-space-craft-declared-dead-after-landing-sideways-in-a-crater-on-the-moon-153443232.html

... so stay tuned.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 1:03 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

> David Bray wrote:
>
> > I'd go for burning hydrogen - not hydrogen fusion - if we can extract
> water
> > from the Moon with solar power as the initial kick-starter. We will need
> > the hydrogen for future rockets launched from the Moon's lower gravity to
> > Mars and beyond too...
>
> I think water is better used for people than for burning. There isn't that
> much
> of it out there.
>
> There are times you need the high thrust, but if you can use electricity
> instead, it's better in the long run (and on the moon, with 14 day
> 'nights' I
> think nuclear will win
>
> burning hycrogen may be needed for landings and maneuvering, but use
> magnetics
> for launching.
>
> David Lang_______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list
> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>

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Re: [NNagain] Hurling rocks into Earth's gravity well

[David Lang]

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David Bray wrote:

> The latest missions suggest water is all over the Moon and not that rare -
> https://dailygalaxy.com/2024/09/scientists-confirm-water-all-over-the-moon/

'not that rare' is still along the lines of 12 oz of water per m^3 of rock

yes there is a lot of rock, but it takes a lot of energy to extract the rock, 
heat it to extract the water, cool the water, and dispose of the rock.

David Lang

> Unfortunately we cancelled the VIPER effort
> https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa-ends-viper-project-continues-moon-exploration/
> ... and Athena crashed
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/intuitive-machines-athena-space-craft-declared-dead-after-landing-sideways-in-a-crater-on-the-moon-153443232.html
>
> ... so stay tuned.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 1:03 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> David Bray wrote:
>>
>>> I'd go for burning hydrogen - not hydrogen fusion - if we can extract
>> water
>>> from the Moon with solar power as the initial kick-starter. We will need
>>> the hydrogen for future rockets launched from the Moon's lower gravity to
>>> Mars and beyond too...
>>
>> I think water is better used for people than for burning. There isn't that
>> much
>> of it out there.
>>
>> There are times you need the high thrust, but if you can use electricity
>> instead, it's better in the long run (and on the moon, with 14 day
>> 'nights' I
>> think nuclear will win
>>
>> burning hycrogen may be needed for landings and maneuvering, but use
>> magnetics
>> for launching.
>>
>> David Lang_______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list
>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>
>