From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C623292D392 for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 12:25:54 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762514754; x=1763119554; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=vV0CT4GXgEqrBiwFYZatAFi/FIvi0OGVRTtkqJOLaYU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=ZBSgHSSI4Wsp1L+dXccIUyaEnHY72XdZnaGNSEJdE/MaINrfDxJ8ZIXfnFJEJpjp HnyYOpYAjBD5j5C9CBfqG/DMiDswjr+RWhnQ9fMQuftsfR8wnDWOT58dD+rZdz6nf 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approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= Subject: [NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Vint, > On 7. Nov 2025, at 12:00, Vint Cerf via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > Frantisek, > how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth? Oh, the issue here is that Telekom sells data transport services to/from = the whole internet to its end customers with a given maximal capacity. = So customers can (and do) expect that the whole internet is accessible = at that rate at least as far this is within the control of Telekom. But = Telekom is notorious for not expanding its cost-neutral peering = connections to the other T1 ISPs and rather let them run "hotter" than = traditionally done, so that during primetime all connections reaching = telekom eyeballs suffer from increased delay, jitter and packet loss and = consequently lower throughput. The reason is that Telekom rather wants = content providers to buy its rather expensive "transit" or "peering" = products instead of using their normal transit provider.=20 > The > latter is pretty common and even understandable. Yes, nobody considers that a violation of NN principles as this is an = orthogonal dimension and the consequences are clearly revealed to the = end user. > In the US, neutrality > meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to = pay > more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they = wanted, > not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily = which > services the user would get at what speed. The application providers, > similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. = In > all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to = users > and application providers. The rule works more or less like common > carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all = services > to all parties on the same terms. All fine... what Telekom has discovered is, that it can not selectively = throttle say all traffic to/from content provider A* without running = afoul of NN rules, but it can throttle ALL traffic running via specific = peerings indiscriminately by running that peering link too hot. The = issue is IMHO only partially Telekom's late stage capitalism play trying = to extort money, it is more the fact that our regulator (and all = european regulators for that matter) decided to turn a blind eye towards = this "working-around" the NN-regulations. Telekom has capable PR wizards on the case that always frame this as = trying to get the big content providers to should their "fair share" iof = the cost of the network build out, ignoring that it already charges its = customers already for that purpose and manages to make a profit already. Regards Sebastian *) With the likely intent of selling special access to A to allow it to = avoid the throttling. =20 >=20 > v >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >=20 >> DT is at it again: >>=20 >> https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9 >>=20 >> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with = the >> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that = the >> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access >> websites. >>=20 >> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their >> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality. >>=20 >> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, = the >> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor >> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a >> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for = Telekom=E2=80=99s >> users." >>=20 >> All the best, >>=20 >> Frank >>=20 >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>=20 >>=20 >> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >>=20 >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>=20 >>=20 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>=20 >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714> >>=20 >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885> >>=20 >> Skype: casioa5302ca >>=20 >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 >=20 >=20 > until further notice > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net