From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A5A43B29D for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:06:43 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1699963601; x=1700568401; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=Hyhm5FkcFi5YbToGPuTCoYlkpXZoLEDC4anXruX2rzg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=iV5Jz8NwHZWSwcPk8DZxvH5+xx8m/ljzr1xlWY0h/oTIEiczq3ffNHnwiP3dVh9U Zb+f9FeKCRIqcAxDqDmmF81Ty6q5YOdZxsqH+rbst2XXgupMLRCoz8RqsD2R8kKIH 1bb0yGJCHzXoF/s0a/ya2WtNOs4pT+XcRHF0NBo9TyJOST8AHhlTzO2X/RWoWb8Iy fTnIEMaqv9kzdLG+klrJUyfGoXOxiIEpkqPX8ssRteUPx9jUGw8A796vnphXr9qeO fHYox/RgufLnDS5yVy2YAEkeKcLis8CzZRhLf1hQddxxzyvWWw+nx1VvEL0PyuPDp AfqSa7moY3kD/aVTmw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([208.204.163.242]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mk0JW-1rnBJA3tOK-00kQyC; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:06:41 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:06:39 -0500 References: <6318C91C-A664-464E-8A9E-4C2A0FFD9C05@comcast.com> <4154C0D8-EF61-4483-97F9-7CDE82CD803D@gmx.de> <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> To: Dick Roy , =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= In-Reply-To: <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:N6vnMcmKRyQpdUUtBog/bQNxj31cuKB9CiN4l8V8V7lHHEYRDnB emMyV6+cerbWusIHjnwam6a6+xe9tgrUhLQCx9gLjH3q+N1gS1z9xbO13/0urytmQMkd3e/ RqCyBN9Kd27e3lyDwptqBAEKXNz0d8ZdSIN/Ox5ZCpyOkCFhSwF+00/FduTnw5p3TpZ9Lok KPA5nwZfvYZKC9wLenJfg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:bLJR68ClAVA=;KfD9ocKKQ2FMnUUcUeWGwLXUHta 455GbqmjEXC68FqOKicf+ybXFu7xGdHdqpV6/aI0mHaB+kCffadYpN+ZNSjmWmCwJ2HNtj4bV RtonIIaF+9vHbcTG3U7ai81C7dORhc33bquChEXFtTRCzpVH8Nap13EYt61uIEwFiRKBH7qJ2 om+Bq3qhWqIm+tdGudEykBN5gEVQwQEbMrRTc3wH5OAiJ7cchVaZJZEqZusdRIG9fcMiJ6MZw cLzyC5a8EzQILf7Aw4mzQgYsIi8RfX05f1lberBbgHlOH0v6aSb06f9s3ObFc1m6YM9TS2U30 Ne5nSwR3QvlbvNXl8FbqrblIrTJuuCD29P9AzK64w8lzAypHUoqzmF6UZdepFJGX2DipUItGq faIudFkSvxTI8wBGvWrVsnwgbcXBUqw4WYf1IR07kHNJTFzCsDuN+IUukRf4EqcQVXGH5tYYm fZgjsQMqFf4n3TdrHP9/65D/rCAc0PuJ0zXRgeEersICOUfNZhuiuJYjDWewC5dLdm/Kqqng2 LFJkPlRo+RiwCub/wKaB2gVT4+VULDIJNU5g83XAIR7pgBZ3loywK/ULmrI2pksYUm8Gk4vBR EeTezEbKPCE0t4kPiP626Mvy+hAE5eDbgMjH4cuaR7EYtG2/Nk2pQW3+4j06p10QYF+YOTS9O bEZI06wmjTyYx5zH99lGVv/poBs/aqtLWJCMaDZzY37orF3eATzF6sUvsDW1hhSft7kRMb/po YGgc83a1mK+RofOJVRfxwtVH3Ch/xPT8VixS/iJkljeG+IIYnwYT8uu1dogRhIEnrfusPbUhA AYdurPLZHoahoT0/+SQOCk+91kHFz0nyKt9fuQAHNJNIibkKl53mMpkpjvcNOgFndq1YX/Kfp Kflb/RIos1/7XEYjyiKYiQBRjNNQiE3MthuoCe2P7vgNvNlsFyLTS+SoihNP+DuTN2HqIRWXj jcLT/oi3HzK5sLsIG6yl1HOXuIQ= Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 12:06:44 -0000 Hi Richard, > On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > =20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects = heard this time! > Cc: Sebastian Moeller > Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble > =20 > Hi Jason, > =20 > =20 > > On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain = wrote: > >=20 > > > Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart = manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, = compute availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does = devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to = make that connection as well.=20 > > =20 > > One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos = that Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access = network to do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port = facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely = operate cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce = over a low delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth = (they=E2=80=99d adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps). > > =20 > > While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator = being able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to = control cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis = (vs. being based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization = of their skills/training), even from the comfort of home. > =20 > =20 > I would stop doing business with such ports... there clearly are = accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless = connections for such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that is what = Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat = emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should be = done as well...=20 > =20 > Regards > Sebastian > =20 > P.S.: Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how = shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is = more responsive than GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone = is LTE only... > [RR] Welcome to the =E2=80=9Cclub=E2=80=9D! We in the US have been = dealing with this for over 30 years =E2=80=A6 why you ask???? ... answer = =E2=80=A6 CDMA and the IPR behind it! It was and still is =E2=80=9Call = about the money!=E2=80=9D. My phone has 5G and when download rates = plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the = display, and lo and behold =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m on 5G!!! If you believe = 5G is going to be better, I have a bridge for you that =E2=80=9Cis going = to be soooo much better=E2=80=9D JJJ All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in = the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not = pay much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not = impossible that it at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting = with EDGE speeds, quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then = EDGE was indeed cutting edge).=20 About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city? Regards Sebastian > =20 > RR > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > > =20 > > Jason > > =20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Nnagain mailing list > > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain