From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E64F3B2A4 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2023 10:41:31 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1696344088; x=1696948888; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=5IirqCJHOywYvL1G4Pxo5adxOgqP39K3WRl+5S9uz2o=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=Av0DtatV49jXnoQ4BGk5UXyBsxCwtOqQAP8RKlfSiWzRIZygOZQEYPkvU3R0pFLnhxAyBhTbbDQ Z5l/Nj6A1+2Z1CbuT5ObxfIw8RV2e5HKVU+vjOl4a8ndVhnjCWtm7zis5plpHKcSLxh3crO3ePjuO CcNGqmq/F9XoUr7ih4vtsJwiLIbDbQO0HXRPuPANuFjxdnQxkpW5pehTNDXnqERpNi+ZghDWLCbbo RP/79MKeFANzUk46B2GsKOH3nOIZFNymDigFcFQPfiT4c/sjJgI6C+bpA44Bp5LVLBiO2vZen+hgd unnvDP3mGPCUlCHj2/UwSHe0Frfs39FCWRMA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.116.82.136]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHG8g-1qs4JE0xwu-00DKBv; Tue, 03 Oct 2023 16:41:28 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 16:41:27 +0200 References: <6D7F7242-248B-4FD4-BEDA-EE931B7DFE3C@andyring.com> <0a158308-e0c1-4722-8013-745e3ded232d@app.fastmail.com> <1B7534EB-2FCE-4500-B53D-F1DFEED1DBC7@gmx.de> <3ce603ed-5459-4d7b-af24-f377dcb384b4@cavebear.com> To: karl@cavebear.com, =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= In-Reply-To: <3ce603ed-5459-4d7b-af24-f377dcb384b4@cavebear.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Yn+5xwJHgoWIJ0H60LLiHBbrSPfpTj95ENsZwWGkBNwB1KOaRjq Qbj3rwoFuPcsdRzwTpp+Yl1N2dQbLq1UltsKrx1p+OiVU0o8tyhAwED3kHIdMubdsW/NSkT GVZMBNgk4LJIYR4UbL9cPm6XkGYfD9v20KxAhA1qmxuhKxmPOsIRgQRvvBD291m3MJf6Grd HuP2bNZGEhkwUhpdvrBGQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:FhF8WFoV/Uk=;I0IWUBsGpBo+cwhQPaxLxCArlUw TomRdxWgG+ffaHetjRfPRzkoyM0Z6qfagwR0WxSHnmQ+wHnbnygUNQZkeyuvyGAEiMebXtfEd 1ScFtgtzNXdNYVYumOrfQS/v8BGxrptr8r+yGtgq+85SBPtPI6Sbai9wXN+6grlny24NqFmcy 8P8UZTKHhu4SbEmzaBsq8VDdapMomWm4XNtxT52fsk54uu9+CTomb44Zd3gNeME7ve07tBOkK lSh7Sek1oMoo454fYSi6qn/2Q3U23sHctRrA94PmcLiFzui8LBK3k7gOgOnQkdVoARcFb3caa GlKuA/5huIPxJxvVOtm8MptVXf69LlgKftIRgrCnKwVdzumAIXAtWXxOp3jkwZ7BuQkMLXkRt FdIeo1a9Idqcc8NjosfBb6qZNKFHhQBz7VA+DRWpQTV26HnVDE+1isFrPaTzI2Cq/wcqEVDl5 0e8YArF971DjWr0hoRUBsV5HZ3vDuQI5DvcwoZ27KSbX3PbEkC2mGxnZrHg/6vS5uOYnKybiE WeF9ElHnkoFMH3uUScZUgtwEOqm6vQXLpUwkVCuuqGZAuFRAOtjZi+1FgexcfV7yt+fNqCMRh 4rsKu+idxJ8/i8Tb+b9ZxEbV2K1nc6MxP9EoE3KpzNFok5tn3KSc1CLZq7+SloBJclqidSWxy FMgsfXC9+cm6AMZSSdrIpzIy3H5NHnyVbfYiX/hIHN4tVfaiYk9/fPbWTOGydRvVsHxLEeyW8 wY7n/gEaesI2915ER6TCfnuXv+wwieQKcMCG4WVOi9CLSNoKVJwlryACKNxK9eaVNxjgFKsXn gVAJG2CKvY1saj8bnr1UlNKgjfXdyZU6lbqUivQjFdRUix7jYXEjXil035shO95OjJ1sWo7vF dZlKiFVvg54pTig0le7oudaeIftfkPWbsKXqSBn6V+qqQKPLbp+35LA+yJJ++w5Xc37U+v+eS XqW5esyNLNUuI7w72cBFlKcfe/U= Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2023 14:41:31 -0000 Hi Karl, > On Oct 3, 2023, at 10:10, Karl Auerbach via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > Extremely minor comment: >=20 > I see the phrase "access to the Internet" being used. That rubs me = the wrong way because nearly everything we do on the net is "access = *across* the Internet". The difference may seem subtle; but to me it is = important because the former phrase tends to make me overlook that from = a user point of view, what matters is the full-path, the full end-to-end = experience. [SM] Indeed, I agree that end-users are interested in the full = path, so across the internet. The ISP however that I pay for internet = access services can hardly be held responsible for the full path, as = that ISP can only affect how he/she connects end-users like me to their = own internal network and how their own network is connected to upstream = or equal partners. For example if I buy a 100M internet access link from = my ISP and try to download from a server connected to another AS with = only 10 Mbps, I could hardly fault my ISP for that? In comparison if the = bottleneck to that server is caused by some discrimination in my ISPs = network I can go talk to my ISP about the rationale behind that. Regards Sebastian >=20 > --karl-- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain