From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 869EE3CB37 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2023 18:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-59f7f46b326so17804307b3.0 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 15:53:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696546424; x=1697151224; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=vnh/JtjImVhfjrz6xe7KN0nnuGbeEJAB4FIKRVz4I8c=; b=lCCbkA9ZXQXUJIx/lGXfPEVMCUy2ww8yz0F6pg4grInQUJI/Dxwe5Xcs6g7FP+1pwj sbqMg9wqkpY2R+k2MOswBLm85sMv5uzCdC4tJQhQITZ0i6uKzcFZy1pfGhvbzhChKPLM Fkg9Kcfh1wAcmh2ZkqbKFJjCcACDKLtHYBzebYPIA7D9BVMVMuZwTi4qVvGu0OgIoEqJ PXq9eEElnINtI8zOlzrt9y91FEOGs1xxEP3VFkjqy2DX3KiVES/MZp7p0T9/HnMJm/Um 9P1qcnHOfnY7MEnwcYNw6/OBmi9N5mQy/4zQbmWYIPkeUgK/awwOgptihMHvizFgqqQb bhGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696546424; x=1697151224; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vnh/JtjImVhfjrz6xe7KN0nnuGbeEJAB4FIKRVz4I8c=; b=rMnPHzLHNQcHFHW68brRMyQBZYY5HhRKSY5DfDvTje9Kjo0GiQFd8cKIJPfFi/0Td+ 6rvSFGmGAh1HdkFnCeELEQaIOcFG4z6KO0F/Gc4pKTi2a6xcV7XSIGG8bJjiFOf0oxmY rXo6yLILLNxe+hMPgNmLIIGOSRYKwYy292U+0YNkw0JAMQWWaoyZa0WXfHP8dddVtj9F ts+DNWEYO1TLlDWghypo3/Ont2OSeo2BhixATxm/ipsR8R4JlQPAXxGdEsVXAL5VsoMs mjlrJZ0W1DvsJaxTeqMfmLL3zvsGl/xrM7zwhgYsISgDm3rE+u7iibpZj/ZOSlfV5LVg oE+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwHIhqD5iv4pOAVEojpr6M2NyKtL18EtV62AiHzqIAWoBCxRo0M 4+Qn2oIsVcKzrJWSzKfrP+VFPNN3lAxwQw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFjrLGbnFtC1NTyd51WPZta15yNa38CDrCzR0JjozdLSjm84WpGrySrd19Ey1PTlMNtyH2ihg== X-Received: by 2002:a81:7c8b:0:b0:592:5475:6c0f with SMTP id x133-20020a817c8b000000b0059254756c0fmr7033835ywc.27.1696546423608; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 15:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2c58:d080:fcee:a2fb:b32c:c063]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l5-20020a0dfb05000000b005a1f7231cf5sm826508ywf.142.2023.10.05.15.53.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Oct 2023 15:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-02EE4CE5-84F1-4174-B9A2-036E8C53705C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Cohen Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 18:53:32 -0400 Message-Id: References: <6ED94BF433874449A02EA959E7B95B54@SRA6> Cc: "Livingood, Jason" In-Reply-To: <6ED94BF433874449A02EA959E7B95B54@SRA6> To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu, =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_techni?= =?utf-8?Q?cal_aspects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20G81) Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 22:53:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail-02EE4CE5-84F1-4174-B9A2-036E8C53705C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I admittedly know little about the service from the radio out in FWA deploym= ents like this but have done a lot of work in the aggregation and backhaul a= renas in both environments. The advantage the FWA folks have is that it is s= ignificantly more financially viable to not oversubscribe (or oversubscribe l= ess) when you deliver more users from a more centralized next hop location. I= n other words, it=E2=80=99s easier and cheaper to have 100 Gbps serving 1000= users from a single location than it is to have 1 Gbps serving 10 users fro= m 100 different locations. Which is not to say that there aren=E2=80=99t oth= er challenges in FWA environments relative to FTTx environments, but system c= apacity (you can always add more radios, with enough available spectrum, at l= east) isn=E2=80=99t one of them. Dave Cohen craetdave@gmail.com > On Oct 5, 2023, at 6:17 PM, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Has anyone done an analysis of the capacity of FWA systems (in bits/sec/Hz= /km^3)???? I am suspicious that the capacity falls way short of that which c= able guys have at their disposal, and that as the FWA networks get loaded, p= erformance is going to degrade dramatically ultimately resulting in churn ba= ck to the cable guys. It's very expensive to compete with already sunk FTTH= or even FTTC. =20 > =20 > RR > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of L= ivingood, Jason via Nnagain > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 1:25 PM > To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects hear= d this time! > Cc: Livingood, Jason > Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors > =20 > > On 10/4/23, 13:45, "Nnagain on behalf of David Lang via Nnagain" on behalf of nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > wrote: > =20 > > It's an unfortunate fact of reality that the enviornment in the US is on= e where > there is very little competition in the ISP space > =20 > The SEC 10-K filings of ISPs no longer support that. Most wireline ISPs ar= e losing subscribers (at material levels) to one of the three new national 5= G FWA ISPs (Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T). In addition, we will in a few years se= e the effects of $45B+ of grant money dedicated to underwrite new broadband a= ccess network construction - that is also pretty material. > =20 > Per https://telecoms.com/523519/growth-in-5g-fwa-kit-matches-operator-hype= / > - " 5G FWA customer premises equipment shipments more than doubled to 7.4 m= illion last year and should reach 13.8 million =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s 86% g= rowth =E2=80=93 this year " > - " The GSA survey shows overall FWA CPE shipments of 25.5 million units l= ast year, " > - " Statistics shared by Leichtman Research Group recently showed that T-M= obile and Verizon together recorded the best part of 900,000 5G FWA net adds= in the second quarter of this year, significantly more than the virtually f= lat cable segment and ahead of the wireline broadband market, which lost alm= ost 62,000 customers in the three months. " > =20 > JL > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --Apple-Mail-02EE4CE5-84F1-4174-B9A2-036E8C53705C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I admittedly know little about the service f= rom the radio out in FWA deployments like this but have done a lot of work i= n the aggregation and backhaul arenas in both environments. The advantage th= e FWA folks have is that it is significantly more financially viable to not o= versubscribe (or oversubscribe less) when you deliver more users from a more= centralized next hop location. In other words, it=E2=80=99s easier and chea= per to have 100 Gbps serving 1000 users from a single location than it is to= have 1 Gbps serving 10 users from 100 different locations. Which is not to s= ay that there aren=E2=80=99t other challenges in FWA environments relative t= o FTTx environments, but system capacity (you can always add more radios, wi= th enough available spectrum, at least) isn=E2=80=99t one of them.

Dave Cohen
craetdave@gmail.com

On Oct 5, 2023, at 6:17 PM, Dick Roy via Nna= gain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

=
=EF=BB=BF

Has anyone done an analysis of the capacity of FWA systems (in bits/sec/Hz/km^3)????  I am suspicious that the capacity falls way shor= t of that which cable guys have at their disposal, and that as the FWA networks g= et loaded, performance is going to degrade dramatically ultimately resulting in= churn back to the cable guys.  It's very expensive to compete with alre= ady sunk FTTH or even FTTC.  

 

RR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Li= vingood, Jason via Nnagain
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 1:25 PM
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard t= his time!
Cc: Livingood, Jason
Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors

 

> On 10/4/23, 13:45, "Nnagain on behalf of David Lang via Nnagain" <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>&g= t; wrote:

 

> It's an unfortunate fact of reality that the enviornment in the= US is one where

there is very little competition in the ISP space =

 

The SEC 10-K filings of ISPs no longer support that. Most wireline I= SPs are losing subscribers (at material levels) to one of the three new national= 5G FWA ISPs (Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T). In addition, we will in a few years s= ee the effects of $45B+ of grant money dedicated to underwrite new broadband access network construction - that is also pretty material.

 

Per https://telecoms.com/523519/growth-in-5g-fwa-kit-matches-operato= r-hype/

- " 5G FWA customer premises equipment shipments more than doubled to 7.4 million last year and should reach 13.8 million =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99= s 86% growth =E2=80=93 this year "

- " The GSA survey shows overall FWA CPE shipments of 25.5 million units last year, "

- " Statistics shared by Leichtman Research Group recently showed that T-Mobile and Verizon together recorded the best part of 900,000 5G FWA n= et adds in the second quarter of this year, significantly more than the virtual= ly flat cable segment and ahead of the wireline broadband market, which lost almost 62,000 customers in the three months. "

 

JL

 

_______________________________________________

Nnagain mailing list

Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net

https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

_______________________________________________
Nnagai= n mailing list
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
<= /o:smarttagtype>
= --Apple-Mail-02EE4CE5-84F1-4174-B9A2-036E8C53705C--