From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB28D3B29D for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:47:06 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1698176825; x=1698781625; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=NUFMy5AxdwcdYflbbAUWKnsYUlLM800Ny2BkAz0OdTk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=CaaHDo7Qm25vHZOQuZ8K54z75lJk39DAm+AHLJgSf73CZq9TTcwpPyVlLFxsrvar vD1JmoE84qR4cxTnPzVCLRi5ppqAVeIKdl9z9MGXKOvG6cYUqUbveSq4EiYHvgaOw n+c4/osLl6Cyz7+YwImT+Xwqt+dUPKzoG/xm5KhT1JEjQllgtAVzA16kGjMXMThz8 pgPGStYml7Wp2uZTWHwVolwMf6cPGBy/KpYGuwu0DgZUv6Mdgr8ziCq36JjB5Gh34 aknrK8fqX48dlGO4PdU5l3sigKjjscQ0XEnMUs+me9+F/hQutlEnMSKhQ3O8tk4HL AZl5fHn+GU3XgpKogw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.3.166.67]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1McH9i-1rTbBk3gjM-00ce4h; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:47:04 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:47:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lDi91zypfOe9YyfuI2vAauWVSV7elkjdqc6AxtVAYOQoLQyCU+G Y2CNP2YC9gDa1k57rEQFDCDN1IAQ9tHM3uK1vUqkys8JHef7POIbDsmtxescUIWJwHeFIni NkalzV8A4GlEGlsfijE7jFlN1aPDtwMwZcihn/yXnQD2U167jmLds8wRGFAOiQm94Ri+baP da/k79utqexdhtd+HdTOQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:BXZbMFN2KHY=;ufH/QvMAh2jWy4uAJy0puGDRSEr hXPqwcy9WFPy1psQSKMkEGB512JVsluqRi89I6pDdVk413AuGYnpN6k/TJfxgPzsuzG0YHuOd dbG6eZCFVSU2ifL8Q+sbIg2krfc4LjiMdJVqVAMJIE6FnndoI6iUU+zx3AN6bJH2h/5aV0KtQ HzIVswK+X4fdXeDnKHBAWbhf9UzjH4g0EMCrQTji6J/1yD5kS/AnA7WDl74jGsXSXXkwdDROo vJTGsGYvx9rxywudk4k9D8sXBAFwse/HE+YgmNyM72EV4MVpXXpCFId4aw5HGTDrYsBxcjNix NEjSf1tdLo3z3tsqCxql9/eXA75mvSpo6pKajtkkJu8ArSZfGLC3nwjJmJKvHea3iT7GIH24C MHqIer8mHw0+wcYeM00kRFZEyUyQzch09IipmXwkF1RdmkMR9ofP2wBilQt77kLJL3wOhy8YQ ltz0ffc2IJxMqvYdxTKwEC09XjbcYxAfrNRvASeOlhisUIrnIQV88FBly/d4EKj9L69rDbY6g 5gsZETlLykm/Hw//L4j3J27g1h5ZAlCKHgjQImRI3DoYIkAa1A0ZclzKky/qSa2omZnBX1F/I Pu7m/4+opkdzIMxwkE8jk9UXk2aJkO1s/DMPCxlk9SKfHppcDTGb5DCQFJkmYaN3iud/iYXrk J4EfUrfU3kW0T+0zlqyhcUVH9JL2LTdFFpyEkczRalAEBDP4IYByV7HV6tr/0avkYdHokTFx6 c+xdckQxreL404ijS9XOT820zXuFrciKr0bzuCsKuG8CmInEm+H/k6+ASrZ7UmFQXXztGRVUt s/wvZlDNqUVshDIjLfNdhPIlcoeCxffSAn+R4HaHu06GeXUUm/yfo/Ep2ZID67aLoj55ZaX22 nk1mKmZx58iJrFs9JsK0+Q34l+QXMVcjA1VIIBR3ZQ+YrpXK3SNX5MkaBZB9418Z7Ljx0Mkre sIKAzA== Subject: Re: [NNagain] Brendan Carr: "Six years ago, Americans lived through one of the greatest hoaxes in regulatory history... X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:47:07 -0000 > On Oct 24, 2023, at 21:21, Dave Taht via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff = goodfellow via > Nnagain wrote: >>=20 >> =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/17165588443= 84379163 >=20 > Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims on > this part of his post: >=20 > https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716884139226329512 >=20 > to be true. Any one question this? [SM] I question the inherent claim that this happened in a NN = regulatory free environment though, e.g. California added its own NN = regulation 2018. A regulation that had to first win the uphill struggle = against the FCC order foregoing Title II (which also tried, finally = unsuccessfully, to argue that states have no authority to regulate the = internet, while at the same time giving up the FCC's will to = regulate)... I also got reminded that the FCC only went for Title II in = ~2015, as courts had reigned in on FCC attempts to regulate ISPs under = Title I. This is a bit of the "Preparedness paradox" where a dire situation is = predicted, everybody and their dog works hard to avoid it happening, the = big problem is avoided (due to the hard work) and uninformed folks call = the initial prediction a hoax... think Y2K and similar instances... Carr = might have a point that initial prediction might have been a tad to = bleak, but come on this is how politics works: you make your solution = look (slightly) better and the alternatives (slightly) worse and hope to = convince enough so that your view prevails, no? > I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, and, > acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect > success. [SM] But starting out in the first sentence painting the = opposing view as a "hoax" makes it pretty unlikely that objective and = reasoned data and analysis will follow... just an observation > Also individual states had stepped up to institute their own > rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs those > that didn=C2=B4t. [SM] Also interesting, how many users ended up with state = regulation and how many without... (trying to sell access to eyeballs = gets tricky if the majority of the affluent ones end up in states with = NN rules). > The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we > took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1] > videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied on > to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of > terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, and > illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed towers, > produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late fighting > off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how to > make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet - >=20 > Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do not > remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that > terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a > zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you Paul > Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind) and Simon > Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it > wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don=C2=B4t notice" = - > there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not > working *right now* the way they expect. [SM] There are a lot of unsung heroes in most types of = engineering. > There are no nobel prizes for networking. But the scientists, > engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are keeping > civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very irked > at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a > neteng=C2=B4s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, = sometimes > asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my wifi. >=20 > If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other aspects > of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and > somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping the > Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love to > hear it. [SM] +1 >=20 > [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both > useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only achieve > then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 >=20 >> -- >> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com >> living as The Truth is True >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Oct 30: = https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain