From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout07.eigbox.net (bosmailout07.eigbox.net [66.96.185.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 897203B29D for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from bosmailscan09.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.9]) by bosmailout07.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1rEZF4-0005ED-Uj for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:18:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=KasohopM1zArzBUZ7VDSBYww1FeQOB1W48/HvuU3PtI=; b=kfiA91GKWz85OPyNbTfQdfsLH3 BlFAdfm8Iliams2yZGwiSuXD2lAZa89lZLKj5iCCBeE1p+9OraioJSj/6Y1rPAK9YZmjnpIT54HVs CWmyUiO4G2KJSRF/NhKibXoeIePKZZsrCL0Z0YS08GS7no39Vkcf2hcn7b6fe1kUomnbEtjS6mPRZ xzVRbwjJaa7Uw366YszMvToabnXvp4LRQLHGZNcLrNl4Vkd22jNhLuSJQPaELTpNQ8da4RXX52Sha EpZ03I5M6dp/QBkLCPnq0odTkVrfGcH6Gn8zZSql214e1xRtxqEeybnKG8NHqtuIhEO+DrgxC6wf6 43GeQHrA==; Received: from [10.115.3.32] (helo=bosimpout12) by bosmailscan09.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1rEZF4-0006f5-Me for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:18:26 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp03.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.3]) by bosimpout12 with id P6JP2B00303yW76016JSRb; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:18:26 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=dOg9ZNRb c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=6uKCkKhFq2wXOH2GoQX8aA==:117 a=tKttg/DTfI8zZz0UFxdR5w==:17 a=e2cXIFwxEfEA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=8BakzC5KAAAA:8 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=Sb4r1WeZAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=vCHxu8641yyYi9p734sA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=1WgG2HHGM9_ltJXXHkoA:9 a=5BfzATZrNkrA6G0M:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=ciGmOb1QOUSnnH58Ob4j:22 a=uATzjeanwSeqDXve3F9L:22 Received: from c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([73.158.253.41]:64538 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp03.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1rEZF0-00008A-DT; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'rjmcmahon'" , "'David Lang'" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?'Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_he?= =?UTF-8?Q?ard_this_time!'?= References: <55037f9a-bc2c-4bbb-a4bb-47ad30f16190@rjmcmahon.com> <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.c om> In-Reply-To: <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:18:16 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06A3_01DA3009.337B2BC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdowRZ3Z+QXhd0D5Q+2E8dYcf9PWKgABlfFw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 73.158.253.41 X-EN-OrigHost: c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:18:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06A3_01DA3009.337B2BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It might be worth pondering the following questions: Why is = professional football (in the US) dominated by males when half the = population is female??? Why aren=E2=80=99t women demanding their fair = representation on the field??? =20 Hmmmm =E2=80=A6. =20 :-)=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of rjmcmahon via Starlink Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2023 9:31 AM To: David Lang Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Network Neutrality is back! = Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time! Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF = Application =20 The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer=20 science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio. She was asked,=20 "What's the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population so=20 50/50." The others said, "Be realistic." =20 She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every technology=20 group.Though we have more improvements to be done. =20 https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-= college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/ =20 There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the denial=20 phase. This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk displayed=20 here by its constituents, are very much white male things. Not noticing=20 this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the group. My = judgment. =20 Bob > to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone > saying women's) views are not desired. I think a diversity of views if > extremely valuable. >=20 > I just get my back up when people say things like 'there need to more > X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteristic that > someone is born with) >=20 > David Lang >=20 > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 >> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume >> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily >> male also. >>=20 >> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet >> should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how >> that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I hesitate >> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and >> messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone more >> important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or protecting kids), >> also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature >> conclusions from. >>=20 >> = https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+d= ifferently >>=20 >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >>>=20 >>> I've used it personally. >>>=20 >>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that=20 >>> women have any >>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth=20 >>> possible. >>>=20 >>> David Lang >>>=20 >>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services.=20 >>>> They are >>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of=20 >>>> the >>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may=20 >>>> be. So >>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't=20 >>>> work over >>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance=20 >>>> learning. >>>>=20 >>>> = https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients= -providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >>>>=20 >>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should=20 >>>> remain in >>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back=20 >>>> telehealth access >>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a=20 >>>> growing >>>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health = needs. >>>>=20 >>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume=20 >>>> healthcare >>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to=20 >>>> women. >>>>=20 >>>> Bob >>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet >>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to=20 >>>>> do >>>>> with shipping bits around? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to = >>>>> get >>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every >>>>> house. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem=20 >>>>> were >>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public=20 >>>>> agencies >>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants?=20 >>>>> or >>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses=20 >>>>> for >>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the=20 >>>>> larger >>>>> population areas? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past >>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. >>>>>=20 >>>>> David Lang >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for=20 >>>>>> electricity >>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health=20 >>>>>> and >>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to=20 >>>>>> follow. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm >>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We=20 >>>>>> probably >>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best=20 >>>>>> work for >>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill = >>>>>> =E2=80=93 no >>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to = afford=20 >>>>>> proper >>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth.=20 >>>>>> During the >>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a=20 >>>>>> sampling of >>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 = >>>>>> had >>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, = >>>>>> were >>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to = see how=20 >>>>>> they >>>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their = feet, and=20 >>>>>> doing all >>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 = hauling the=20 >>>>>> water, >>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the=20 >>>>>> shearing, >>>>>> the plowing and the picking. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Because there was no electricity. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of=20 >>>>>>>>> satcom >>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to=20 >>>>>>>>> overcome >>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of=20 >>>>>>>>> digital >>>>>>>>> divide - >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the = >>>>>>>> goal to >>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially >>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at=20 >>>>>>>> specifically >>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is=20 >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to=20 >>>>>>> make a >>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company=20 >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to=20 >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is=20 >>>>>>>>> literally >>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, = >>>>>>>>> it will >>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be = a >>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme=20 >>>>>>>> locations, >>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.=20 >>>>>>>> Whitney). >>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is=20 >>>>>>>> infrastructure that >>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However=20 >>>>>>>> given >>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the = interim=20 >>>>>>>> period. >>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that=20 >>>>>>>> from a >>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually=20 >>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by=20 >>>>>>>> starlink was >>>>>>>> mostly redacted. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between >>>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities=20 >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there = >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable=20 >>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' = the=20 >>>>>>> cost >>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the=20 >>>>>>> majority of >>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), = >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once=20 >>>>>>> you get >>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town = or >>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an >>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is=20 >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink ------=_NextPart_000_06A3_01DA3009.337B2BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It might be worth pondering the following questions:=C2=A0 Why = is professional football (in the US) dominated by males when half the population is female??? =C2=A0Why = aren=E2=80=99t women demanding their fair representation on the = field???

 

Hmmmm =E2=80=A6.

 

J

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of rjmcmahon via Starlink
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2023 9:31 AM
To: David Lang
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this = time!
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application

 

The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer

science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio. She was = asked,

"What's the goal?" She responded, "It should = reflect to population so

50/50." The others said, "Be = realistic."

 

She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every = technology

group.Though we have more improvements to be = done.

 

https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of= -men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/<= /p>

 

There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the = denial

phase. This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk = displayed

here by its constituents, are very much white male things. Not = noticing

this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by = the group. My

judgment.

 

Bob

> to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let = alone

> saying women's) views are not desired. I think a diversity = of views if

> extremely valuable.

>

> I just get my back up when people say things like 'there = need to more

> X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a = characteristic that

> someone is born with)

>

> David Lang

>

> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht = wrote:

>

>> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in = general assume

>> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc = skews heavily

>> male also.

>>

>> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet

>> should be structured to best meet the needs of both = sexes, and how

>> that has changed over time, and may change in the = future! I hesitate

>> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent = connectivity and

>> messaging seems more important to women than men, and a = phone more

>> important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or = protecting kids),

>> also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature

>> conclusions from.

>>

>> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+d= ifferently

>>

>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via = Starlink

>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

>>>

>>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO = services?

>>>

>>> I've used it = personally.

>>>

>>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that = doesn't say that

>>> women have any

>>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that = make telehealth

>>> possible.

>>>

>>> David Lang

>>>

>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon = wrote:

>>>

>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services.

>>>> They are

>>>> using broadband to care for our population. = They also run most of

>>>> the

>>>> addiction services across our country, whatever = the addiction may

>>>> be. So

>>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't

>>>> work over

>>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) = Same for distance

>>>> learning.

>>>>

>>>> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients= -providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/

>>>>

>>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should =

>>>> remain in

>>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that = paring back

>>>> telehealth access

>>>> and affordability will disproportionately = affect women, even as a

>>>> growing

>>>> share of startups emerge to address = women=E2=80=99s unique health needs.

>>>>

>>>> While women are more likely than men to visit = doctors and consume

>>>> healthcare

>>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be = uniquely attractive to

>>>> women.

>>>>

>>>> Bob

>>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for = there to be no Internet

>>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex = of individuals have to

>>>>> do

>>>>> with shipping bits = around?

>>>>>

>>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future = competitors) provides a way to

>>>>> get

>>>>> Internet service to everyone without having = to run fiber to every

>>>>> house.

>>>>>

>>>>> As for the parallels with rural = electrification, if that problem

>>>>> were

>>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer = be massive public

>>>>> agencies

>>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants?

>>>>> or

>>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries = in individual houses

>>>>> for

>>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular = reactors to power the

>>>>> larger

>>>>> population = areas?

>>>>>

>>>>> Just because there was only one way to = achieve a goal in the past

>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best = thing to do today.

>>>>>

>>>>> David Lang

>>>>>

>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon = wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Hi All,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> We're trying to modernize = America. LBJ helped do it for

>>>>>> = electricity

>>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up = to the plate. Tele-health

>>>>>> and

>>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. = There is so much to

>>>>>> follow.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> A reminder what many women went through = before LBJ showed up. I'm

>>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is = even close to capable. We

>>>>>> probably

>>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least = motivate us to do our best

>>>>>> work for

>>>>>> our country and to be an example to the = world.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her = chores even if she was ill

>>>>>> =E2=80=93 = no

>>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country = women were too poor to afford

>>>>>> proper

>>>>>> medical care they often suffered = perineal tears in childbirth.

>>>>>> During the

>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent = physicians to examine a

>>>>>> sampling = of

>>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found = that, out of 275 women, 158

>>>>>> had

>>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team = of gynecologists reported,

>>>>>> were

>>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so = bad that it is difficult to see how

>>>>>> they

>>>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they = were standing on their feet, and

>>>>>> doing all

>>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had = always done =E2=80=93 hauling the

>>>>>> water,

>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, = ironing, helping with the

>>>>>> shearing,

>>>>>> the plowing and the = picking.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Because there was no = electricity.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Bob

>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian = Moeller via Starlink wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hi = Frantisek,

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain

>>>>>>>>> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, = one would like the advantages of

>>>>>>>>> = satcom

>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at = least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to

>>>>>>>>> = overcome

>>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' = problem.

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink = was about to address the issue of

>>>>>>>>> = digital

>>>>>>>>> divide = -

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 I beg to differ. = Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the

>>>>>>>> goal = to

>>>>>>>> make a profit by offering = (usable) internet access essentially

>>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as = I can tell an attempt at

>>>>>>>> = specifically

>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide = (were often an important factor is

>>>>>>>> = not

>>>>>>>> necessarily location but = financial means).

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " = commercial enterprise with the goal to

>>>>>>> make a

>>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) = internet" don't dismiss a company

>>>>>>> = because

>>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other = Satellite ISPs) all exist to

>>>>>>> = service

>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional = wired infrastructure

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to = those 640k locations, where there is

>>>>>>>>> = literally

>>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will = NEVER get there. And it will get there,

>>>>>>>>> it = will

>>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the = road.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is IHO the = wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a

>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network = (with the exception of extreme

>>>>>>>> = locations,

>>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.

>>>>>>>> = Whitney).

>>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or = two, so be it, this is

>>>>>>>> infrastructure = that

>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many = decades once rolled-out. However

>>>>>>>> = given

>>>>>>>> that time frame one should = consider work-arounds for the interim

>>>>>>>> = period.

>>>>>>>> I would have naively thought = starlink would qualify for that

>>>>>>>> from = a

>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then = the FCC documents actually

>>>>>>>> = discussion

>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were = or were not met/promised by

>>>>>>>> starlink = was

>>>>>>>> mostly = redacted.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme = locations'? how long a run between

>>>>>>> houses is 'too = far'?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> we've seen the failure of = commercial fiber monopolies in cities

>>>>>>> with

>>>>>>> housing density of several houses = per acre (and even where there

>>>>>>> are

>>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) = because it's not profitable

>>>>>>> = enough.

>>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's = 'how many acres per house' the

>>>>>>> cost

>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I = don't think this is the

>>>>>>> majority = of

>>>>>>> the population of the = US = any longer (but I don't know for sure),

>>>>>>> but

>>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of = the area of the US. And once

>>>>>>> you = get

>>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even = getting fiber to every town or

>>>>>>> village becomes a major = undertaking.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to = support a village of 700 people an

>>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me = introduce you to Vermontville MI

>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is =

>>>>>>> less

>>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> David = Lang

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________<= /p>

>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing = list

>>>>>>> = Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>>>>>> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

>>>>>>

>>>> = _______________________________________________<= /p>

>>> Starlink mailing list

>>> = Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /p>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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