From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout08.eigbox.net (bosmailout08.eigbox.net [66.96.186.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DFCF3CB37 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bosmailscan01.eigbox.net ([10.20.15.1]) by bosmailout08.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r3flP-0003Cw-U8 for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:02:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:To:From:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=G1pO7UzokdsFVen00J49AHT81/e8L+ACqLWkW7qnv1c=; b=drB8FC+4FlDzGfvRoHnh44afsO 0WbNRfLbQfF5191I3e1y+9oHDRh+ZEp2/foxYKdHZPIb4xbIRz3OB9JnN2teuPG3nvqsWsBXYcGaL nEdVjtykKOl4wziMyEMzkd0qRT6zdmJzAvgDcGSSW1uduF/o+thPUx48H7sCg/FmzDunuZ/fdmsz1 FJAXz1LUXsj15taku51U8uhO8L1Qp3KAyqVZQqvWKhxozmMvkzJlTuKhZIdqU4v8IAs6fFALsZXeP 2Nykkner5Iuq787MOVEcsW67d7nAtuFl+F+T2+kjpXKTGTa18j3rNAQ7RBQdZQ77NnHgn4JIKHp0T 20Q8giXA==; Received: from [10.115.3.33] (helo=bosimpout13) by bosmailscan01.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1r3flP-0005H4-L7 for nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:02:47 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp17.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.17]) by bosimpout13 with id B52k2B0080N5uqq0152nYc; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:02:47 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Q6tJH7+a c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=f4kFLigMKr8AH7rIJ//qJA==:117 a=tKttg/DTfI8zZz0UFxdR5w==:17 a=X0lo_nVYqhSgko1G:21 a=BNY50KLci1gA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=DrQAEJxRt_IOdDsZxFQA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=qbJJu4qMwb8wUGOl6RcA:9 a=ecmt3i13Dhxaa0Qf:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=ihnO7ynG1PjbAwmEH3V-:22 Received: from c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([73.158.253.41]:56018 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp17.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1r3flL-0008Fk-UG; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'Sebastian Moeller'" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pects_heard_this_time!'?= , "'Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain'" References: <6318C91C-A664-464E-8A9E-4C2A0FFD9C05@comcast.com> <4154C0D8-EF61-4483-97F9-7CDE82CD803D@gmx.de> <35F467F6DA3F419FA78DA6BBB236030D@SRA6> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:02:41 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0DCA_01DA186B.A9B464B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdoYiSMkSuQnF/lhQASCl4NrX/7s+QAJWcpw x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 73.158.253.41 X-EN-OrigHost: c-73-158-253-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 17:02:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0DCA_01DA186B.A9B464B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:02 AM To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard = this time!; Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain; Dick Roy Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble =20 Update, mmmh, Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, = while in downtown DC EDGE-only it was... [RR] You are really lucky! It could have said =935G=94 in which case = you=92d have been down to 19kbps 1980 modem rates! :-):-) Regards Sebsstian =20 On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: Hi Richard, On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via Nnagain wrote: =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf = Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard = this time! Cc: Sebastian Moeller Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble =20 Hi Jason, =20 =20 On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain wrote: Would love to spend some time thinking together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has amazing stories -- might be good to = make that connection as well.=20 =20 One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that = Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access network to = do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely operate = cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce over a low = delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth (they=92d adjust = the throughput down to just a few hundred kbps). =20 While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator being able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs. = being based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of their skills/training), even from the comfort of home. =20 =20 I would stop doing business with such ports... there clearly are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using wireless connections for such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that is what = Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really "caveat = emptor", just because something can be done does not mean it should be done as well...=20 =20 Regards Sebastian =20 P.S.: Currently in the US for a conference, getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi (with 25K attendees) is more responsive than GSM... I am sure 5G might be better, but my phone is LTE only... [RR] Welcome to the =93club=94! We in the US have been dealing with = this for over 30 years =85 why you ask???? ... answer =85 CDMA and the IPR behind = it! It was and still is =93all about the money!=94. My phone has 5G and when = download rates plummet to the floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo and behold =85 I=92m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going = to be better, I have a bridge for you that =93is going to be soooo much = better=94 JJJ All good explanations for what I see, yet this is happening in the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone I did not pay = much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not impossible that it = at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting with EDGE speeds, = quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then EDGE was indeed cutting = edge).=20 About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city? Regards Sebastian =20 RR =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Jason _____ =20 Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain _____ =20 Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain _____ =20 Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain _____ =20 Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ------=_NextPart_000_0DCA_01DA186B.A9B464B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: = Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]
Sent: Thursday, November = 16, 2023 3:02 AM
To: Network Neutrality is = back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!; Sebastian Moeller = via Nnagain; Dick Roy
Subject: Re: [NNagain] = The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble

 

Update, mmmh,

Virginia is apparently not only for 'lovers' but also for LTE, along the = trip with the silver line to Dulles, my phone reported 4G, aka LTE, while in downtown DC EDGE-only it was...

[RR] You are really lucky!=A0 It could have said = “5G” in which case you’d have been down to 19kbps 1980 modem rates! = JJ= <= /i>



Regards
         = Sebsstian

 

On 14 November 2023 13:06:39 CET, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

Hi Richard,




On Nov 13, 2023, at 16:08, Dick Roy via =
Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:



=A0

=A0

-----Original Message-----

From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf =
Of Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain

Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 6:15 AM

To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=B4s make the technical aspects heard =
this time!

Cc: Sebastian Moeller

Subject: Re: [NNagain] The rise and fall of the 90's telecom bubble

=A0

Hi Jason,

=A0

=A0
On Nov 13, 2023, at 08:54, Livingood, Jason =
via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> =
wrote:
Would love to spend some time thinking =
together about what a smart manufacturing system would look like in =
terms of connectivity, latency, compute availability, anything that =
occurs to you. I know a guy who does devops for factories, and he has =
amazing stories -- might be good to make that connection as well. =

=A0

One of the L4S (low latency, low loss, scalable throughput) demos that =
Nokia did at a recent IETF hackathon showed a simulated 5G access =
network to do low latency remote control of cranes in an industrial port =
facility. It seemed like one of their points was that you could remotely =
operate cargo container movements with the crane via a remote workforce =
over a low delay network connection - even with fairly limited bandwidth =
(they’d adjust the throughput down to just a few hundred =
kbps).

=A0

While they did not say much more, I could envision a port operator being =
able to gain more efficiency by enabling a skilled operator to control =
cranes at several ports around the world on an as-needed basis (vs. =
being based in 1 port and having some downtime or low utilization of =
their skills/training), even from the comfort of =
home.
=A0

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I would stop doing business with such ports... there =
clearly are accidents (or sabotage/jamming) just waiting to happen using =
wireless connections for such use-cases... Yes, I understand that that =
is what Nokia sells, so everything looks like a nail to them, but really =
"caveat emptor", just because something can be done does not =
mean it should be done as well... 

=A0

Regards

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sebastian

=A0

P.S.: Currently in the US for a conference, =
getting reminded how shitty GSM/LTE can be, heck the conference WiFi =
(with 25K attendees) is more responsive than GSM... I am sure 5G might =
be better, but my phone is LTE only...

[RR] Welcome to the “club”!=A0 We in the US have been dealing with =
this for over 30 years … why you ask???? ... answer … CDMA =
and the IPR behind it!=A0 It was and still is “all about the =
money!”. My phone has 5G and when download rates plummet to the =
floor, all I have to do is look at the top of the display, and lo and =
behold … I’m on 5G!!! If you believe 5G is going to be =
better, I have a bridge for you that “is going to be soooo much =
better” JJJ


=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 All good explanations for what I see, yet this is =
happening in the capital... (but truth be told, when I bought this phone =
I did not pay much attention to which bands it was suited for, it is not =
impossible that it at least partly my phone's fault that I am connecting =
with EDGE speeds, quite the throw-back to the 2000s ;) but back then =
EDGE was indeed cutting edge). 

About that bridge, I hope this is in NY city?







Regards

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sebastian




=A0

RR

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0
=A0

Jason






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https://lists.buf=
ferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain






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https://lists.buf=
ferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain






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ferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain






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ferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my = brevity.

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