From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41E1C3CB38 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 02:14:50 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1705648487; x=1706253287; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=f+Y0OWjfM9Iv1l36kME0+iExsho6OX3YUOKNyp6+Ymg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=uJSvgyENseDeQnr5q6Pna+ve75cH7M7fp/mrtrKcbq5mWb9hYkrTYMZn2o+h69LO bIrNWNgF4Qvvj4TU71KiAM+3k9ElbdlNEglG/skHYtDeWBk5u7GTYChgq9YzphTjt zr3ZLaW1NMxkJPyC6ZqdvWfnFwNIpXbU+M5s1Vp+N0G1v1LKM+WxFC73tfiOVnJqv 8ZxgP142GqtvYzo/wnGI+9oJIq4ooozrOKwzYajDrNs84IX8jY02SS7J9p0Rek4m7 0GpyKhlKE7EuvrHeV5oNsQ5/kCddQqcM1jiA89BG4zfVnU94IvJoIwvJ962fKgOOG Zpthshh75aaFgTKlkw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mq2nA-1qmhZF2TgY-00n7jr; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:14:47 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:14:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EXqCFEEmWxjU0nbJr+4lKfPveAbCPM6vfNNG4U9zPS0pquxM8Mv znC/z6rgAhvv4NXs3H/XeUr16EUAtpI854DI5llPQ1kfCD72lfGGt6JJCIHyVX1BoLcv8n+ sBAv5O1JHLFDnwPhia6xf9ISTvkeRXqeEPWAdCx1s0dImOoyVYFEGSW4EuCziMLTN1jJca9 KM6COCrv127JqpJSqbW3Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:jMHcayYZAEA=;76VdwsNB/hDeQU9snFJr8yG8g69 S7JXGbw+CFZvtvP9jfYXef5uG13gTeWCjxaS3Py+7kgplWJcTMNEZs6oMQV2HIw/GZ6LbCYKQ tlYf4Jutjj/9bBIL5kStqtxGqqkJvlEOKsIRclyZsfneXmDDho7vqoCqdpjU8onoL1rZPaXQ9 bMr9/LD5jFtaWqB3AOjf00EavJlYJ5qo2T0oPVUR6HHBERI2mzlSjEH5uTmBNTynGyp9uNmfz cKJGATlQY80DkhPmEPwcnLcVZLyxrlzpZ90khp/gdwdaZlxG/BYRVo5k9bG+qqSREJ9LYUUvm jgpTw52lqIRJYqVwNnTMpt1OpvpUq+E5F9b+hLph9RqMQjwNkHwTgRbwUTVQ2i/Hioh5kRrmm uVc5q9c9XKeNyZ8bnI7Qgy/Gw76fhgLKlmLUo09GLL2LLmgPxaWMzE0jxlLNcMR9AB0LvYliK Zv+DmMoFqTDas8BStw8jczxD85mvTCpkNcwvUuHUmlPHefZkyxnoqWSO15PMHXEGk0BqYlovH rcTIsEe0gdJJXuXVoaG5hyNhqPO3+rsdAIrsh+6e4473PjxVtA+oIdm0FPom7vXsaXd6P3AXl +2zFarQOJ0q8y/MpACI0WaHw8xUQHhD3b20Nu8349drcdaPl6IRrOpz7nQzmIOnI7Alo+XB9E XQiYQyUaXoUziUSUS+zLluAP26r/BNRGaqdfoKCfkrobvKNH7vWo17NFowkJ1l38w10ShoJ5Y VvH9sZQCBjU5VIFxPjxo+/KwMEKvgadhFmulVXOEWN1BgX7hjtELgLA5Mm0Y+g6W669vxXEmM Oez1n1XWtpv+LPO7tOKY1lKGEhy89fGGR2k3ntGnjzddBRtpEcOvgW1B/mqjqjIaJd1K95f7Z nww5DPWdDii54+biCZFvoNNDfTpn937XRE8s3bEhyNr5z1JgjexiUu5tOBjdb9Xzv9NcWamdR as8SBVnGmal8fe2mOBnzYPrj0pY= Subject: Re: [NNagain] are you Bill Woodcock? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 07:14:50 -0000 Hi Bill, thank you for this great explanation. > On 18. Jan 2024, at 23:38, Bill Woodcock via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 >> On Jan 18, 2024, at 22:51, le berger des photons via Nnagain = wrote: >> First I've ever seen the term IXP. It seems interesting. Can you = point me to some documentation at a level which only requires the = ability to read in english? Lots of what I've seen here has initials = for things which I haven't even been able to decode. >> I've been connecting 200 families in a 25 km radius to internet via 8 = fiber optic connections for the last 20 years. >> I've been thinking of inviting others to participate, help them get = going. >> Thinking how it might be useful to provide each client two accesses. = one to the global internet, one to a local network which isn't being = watched by big brother. >> Does any of this warrant my looking further into IXP technology? >=20 > Hi, Jay. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m afraid I=E2=80=99m really bad at getting all this stuff = written down, though I know it would be useful. I am planning to write = a doctoral thesis on exactly this topic (the societal and economic = impact of Internet exchange points) for Universite Paris 8 next year, = but that will need to be a bit more academic than practical, to satisfy, = you know, academia. >=20 > So, really basically, it sounds like you=E2=80=99re already building = an internet exchange. Internet exchanges are where Internet bandwidth = comes from. Internet service providers bring Internet bandwidth from = IXPs to the places where people want to use it: their homes, their = offices, their phones. Internet bandwidth is free _at_ the exchange, = but transport costs money. Speed times distance equals cost. So the = cost of Internet bandwidth is proportional to the speed and the distance = from IXPs. Plus a profit margin for the Internet service provider. >=20 > So, if one Internet user wants to talk to another Internet user, = generally they hand off their packet to an Internet service provider, = who takes it to an exchange, and hands it off to another Internet = service provider, who delivers it to the second user. When the second = user wants to reply, the process is reversed, but the two Internet = service providers may choose a different exchange for the hand-off: = since each is economically incentivized to carry the traffic the = shortest possible distance (to minimize cost, speed x distance =3D = cost), the first ISP will always choose the IXP that=E2=80=99s nearest = the first user, for the hand-off, leaving the second ISP a longer = distance to carry the packet. Then, when their situations are reversed, = the second ISP will choose the IXP nearest the second user, leaving the = first ISP to carry the packet a longer distance. > [...] I would propose a slight modification, "each is economically = incentivized to carry the traffic the shortest possible distance" is not = free of assumptions... namely that the shortest path is the cheapest = path, which is not universally true. My personal take is "routing = follows cost" that is it is money in the end that steers routing = decisions not distance... (sure often shortest is also cheapest, but it = is simply not guaranteed, at least once we include paid peering and = transit into the equation). Most end-users would actually prefer = shortest distance... Case in point, my ISP aggregates its customers in a handful of locations = in Germany, Hamburg in my case while I actually live a bit closer to = Frankfurt than Hamburg, so all traffic first goes to Hamburg even = traffic to Frankfurt (resulting in a 500-600 Km detour), I assume they = do this for economic reasons and not just out of spite ;)=20 Now, maybe the important point is, this does not involve IXPs so might = be an orange to the IXP apple? Regards & Thanks again Sebastian=