[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Richard Roy <dickroy@alum.mit.edu>]

Seems to me (NANE - not a networking expert 😊) that this is a very complex optimization problem comprised of quasi-static facilities (networks with given characteristics ... peak BW/speed between many nodes/routers/etc..) and a massive number of end nodes (aka customers) with requirements ranging from source-only (providers) to receive-only (consumers) and everything in between.  Is it clear/obvious that all "end nodes" are created equal?  Does the efficacy of "Everyone pays at whatever rate they can afford/wish and is available." Depend on this?  Is NN assuming that they are? Inquiring minds ... 😊😊😊



Cheers,



RR



-----Original Message-----
From: Vint Cerf via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2025 3:20 AM
To: Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
Cc: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>
Subject: [NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet



definitely against neutrality as I understand it. Netflix can pay for big pipes to deliver content to users who pay for whatever rate they want to access that content. This is an attempt to create a two sided market when it is should be one-sided. Everyone pays at whatever rate they can afford/wish and is available.



On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 6:12 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>>

wrote:



> Looks to me, Vint, that this is different. It's not me as a customer

> paying for a wider, faster pipe in the last-mile.

>

> DT is asking content providers, like Netflix, to pay for their content

> to be delivered in the "fast" lane.

>

> All the best,

>

> Frank

>

> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

>

>

> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

>

> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/

>

>

> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

>

> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>

>

> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>

>

> Skype: casioa5302ca

>

> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>

>

>

> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:00 PM Vint Cerf via Nnagain <

> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

>

>> Frantisek,

>> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?

>> The latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US,

>> neutrality meant everyone has the same access rules which includes

>> being able to pay more for higher speed. The users got to determine

>> what speed they wanted, not the provider. Nor could the provider

>> (ISP) choose arbitrarily which services the user would get at what

>> speed. The application providers, similarly, get to choose what speed

>> and cost they can provide service. In all cases, the ISP does not get

>> to dictate the speeds they offer to users and application providers.

>> The rule works more or less like common carriage. You pay for what

>> you get, the carrier has to offer all services to all parties on the same terms.

>>

>> v

>>

>>

>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <

>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

>>

>> > DT is at it again:

>> >

>> > https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9

>> >

>> > "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with

>> > the German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom,

>> > alleging that

>> the

>> > internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to

>> > access websites.

>> >

>> > On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their

>> > complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.

>> >

>> > The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights,

>> > the Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford

>> > professor Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is

>> > creating a two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra

>> > for Telekom’s users."

>> >

>> > All the best,

>> >

>> > Frank

>> >

>> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

>> >

>> >

>> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

>> >

>> > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/

>> >

>> >

>> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

>> >

>> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>

>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>

>> >

>> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>

>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>

>> >

>> > Skype: casioa5302ca

>> >

>> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>

>> > _______________________________________________

>> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> To

>> > unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net>

>> >

>>

>>

>> --

>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:

>> Vint Cerf

>> Google, LLC

>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor

>> Reston, VA 20190

>> +1 (571) 213 1346 <(571)%20213-1346>

>>

>>

>> until further notice

>> _______________________________________________

>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> To unsubscribe

>> send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net>

>>

>



--

Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:

Vint Cerf

Google, LLC

1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor

Reston, VA 20190

+1 (571) 213 1346





until further notice

_______________________________________________

Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>

To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net>