[NNagain] Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[NNagain] Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Frantisek Borsik]

DT is at it again:

https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9

"Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that the
internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
websites.

On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.

The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s users."

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Vint Cerf]

Frantisek,
how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth? The
latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US, neutrality
meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
to all parties on the same terms.

v


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> DT is at it again:
>
> https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
>
> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that the
> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
> websites.
>
> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
>
> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
> users."
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Frantisek Borsik]

Looks to me, Vint, that this is different. It's not me as a customer paying
for a wider, faster pipe in the last-mile.

DT is asking content providers, like Netflix, to pay for their content to
be delivered in the "fast" lane.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:00 PM Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Frantisek,
> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth? The
> latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US, neutrality
> meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
> more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
> not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
> services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
> similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
> all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
> and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
> carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
> to all parties on the same terms.
>
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> > DT is at it again:
> >
> > https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
> >
> > "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
> > German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that the
> > internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
> > websites.
> >
> > On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
> > complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
> >
> > The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
> > Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
> > Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
> > two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
> > users."
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> >
> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> >
> > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> >
> >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> >
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Vint Cerf]

definitely against neutrality as I understand it. Netflix can pay for big
pipes to deliver content to users who pay for whatever rate they want to
access that content. This is an attempt to create a two sided market when
it is should be one-sided. Everyone pays at whatever rate they can
afford/wish and is available.

On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 6:12 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Looks to me, Vint, that this is different. It's not me as a customer
> paying for a wider, faster pipe in the last-mile.
>
> DT is asking content providers, like Netflix, to pay for their content to
> be delivered in the "fast" lane.
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:00 PM Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Frantisek,
>> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth? The
>> latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US, neutrality
>> meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
>> more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
>> not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
>> services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
>> similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
>> all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
>> and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
>> carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
>> to all parties on the same terms.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> > DT is at it again:
>> >
>> > https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
>> >
>> > "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
>> > German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that
>> the
>> > internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
>> > websites.
>> >
>> > On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
>> > complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
>> >
>> > The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
>> > Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
>> > Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
>> > two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
>> > users."
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> >
>> > Frank
>> >
>> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >
>> >
>> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>> >
>> > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>> >
>> >
>> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> >
>> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> >
>> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> >
>> > Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >
>> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346 <(571)%20213-1346>
>>
>>
>> until further notice
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>

-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Vint,


> On 7. Nov 2025, at 12:00, Vint Cerf via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Frantisek,
> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?

Oh, the issue here is that Telekom sells data transport services to/from the whole internet to its end customers with a given maximal capacity. So customers can (and do) expect that the whole internet is accessible at that rate at least as far this is within the control of Telekom. But Telekom is notorious for not expanding its cost-neutral peering connections to the other T1 ISPs and rather let them run "hotter" than traditionally done, so that during primetime all connections reaching telekom eyeballs suffer from increased delay, jitter and packet loss and consequently lower throughput. The reason is that Telekom rather wants content providers to buy its rather expensive "transit" or "peering" products instead of using their normal transit provider. 


> The
> latter is pretty common and even understandable.

Yes, nobody considers that a violation of NN principles as this is an orthogonal dimension and the consequences are clearly revealed to the end user.

> In the US, neutrality
> meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
> more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
> not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
> services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
> similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
> all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
> and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
> carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
> to all parties on the same terms.

All fine... what Telekom has discovered is, that it can not selectively throttle say all traffic to/from content provider A* without running afoul of NN rules, but it can throttle ALL traffic running via specific peerings indiscriminately by running that peering link too hot. The issue is IMHO only partially Telekom's late stage capitalism play trying to extort money, it is more the fact that our regulator (and all european regulators for that matter) decided to turn a blind eye towards this "working-around" the NN-regulations.
Telekom has capable PR wizards on the case that always frame this as trying to get the big content providers to should their "fair share" iof the cost of the network build out, ignoring that it already charges its customers already for that purpose and manages to make a profit already.

Regards
	Sebastian

*) With the likely intent of selling special access to A to allow it to avoid the throttling.
 
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> DT is at it again:
>> 
>> https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
>> 
>> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
>> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that the
>> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
>> websites.
>> 
>> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
>> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
>> 
>> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
>> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
>> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
>> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
>> users."
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>> 
>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>> 
>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> 
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> 
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> 
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> 
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Frantisek Borsik]

To add more data to the case, here is South Korea disaster, covered
by, Kyung Sin (KS) Park: https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7292

"If you are interested in the competition analysis of the Korea's ISP
market and the impact of the sender pay rule (or equivalently "network
usage fee" regime), and all the data and graphs, please review this annex
to a Brazilian study of the similar issue. It looks as if the jointly
written study must have had an impact in the local discourse on the issue."

https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7232

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:25 PM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hi Vint,
>
>
> > On 7. Nov 2025, at 12:00, Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Frantisek,
> > how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?
>
> Oh, the issue here is that Telekom sells data transport services to/from
> the whole internet to its end customers with a given maximal capacity. So
> customers can (and do) expect that the whole internet is accessible at that
> rate at least as far this is within the control of Telekom. But Telekom is
> notorious for not expanding its cost-neutral peering connections to the
> other T1 ISPs and rather let them run "hotter" than traditionally done, so
> that during primetime all connections reaching telekom eyeballs suffer from
> increased delay, jitter and packet loss and consequently lower throughput.
> The reason is that Telekom rather wants content providers to buy its rather
> expensive "transit" or "peering" products instead of using their normal
> transit provider.
>
>
> > The
> > latter is pretty common and even understandable.
>
> Yes, nobody considers that a violation of NN principles as this is an
> orthogonal dimension and the consequences are clearly revealed to the end
> user.
>
> > In the US, neutrality
> > meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
> > more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
> > not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
> > services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
> > similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
> > all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
> > and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
> > carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
> > to all parties on the same terms.
>
> All fine... what Telekom has discovered is, that it can not selectively
> throttle say all traffic to/from content provider A* without running afoul
> of NN rules, but it can throttle ALL traffic running via specific peerings
> indiscriminately by running that peering link too hot. The issue is IMHO
> only partially Telekom's late stage capitalism play trying to extort money,
> it is more the fact that our regulator (and all european regulators for
> that matter) decided to turn a blind eye towards this "working-around" the
> NN-regulations.
> Telekom has capable PR wizards on the case that always frame this as
> trying to get the big content providers to should their "fair share" iof
> the cost of the network build out, ignoring that it already charges its
> customers already for that purpose and manages to make a profit already.
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
> *) With the likely intent of selling special access to A to allow it to
> avoid the throttling.
>
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >> DT is at it again:
> >>
> >> https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
> >>
> >> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
> >> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that
> the
> >> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
> >> websites.
> >>
> >> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
> >> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
> >>
> >> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
> >> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
> >> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
> >> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
> >> users."
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>
> >>
> >> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> >>
> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >>
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>
> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > Vint Cerf
> > Google, LLC
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > Reston, VA 20190
> > +1 (571) 213 1346
> >
> >
> > until further notice
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Frantisek Borsik]

More to the fire:

"Is Vodafone brilliant? Or is it daft? What do you think? Apparently
Vodafone will stop all public and private hashtag#peering in Europe. The
press release of Vodafone and the news articles in Germany aren't fully
clear on how this will work."

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rudolfvanderberg_vodafone-selects-interlink-to-enhance-interconnection-activity-7392520708695883776-yjPQ/

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:47 PM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
wrote:

> To add more data to the case, here is South Korea disaster, covered
> by, Kyung Sin (KS) Park: https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7292
>
> "If you are interested in the competition analysis of the Korea's ISP
> market and the impact of the sender pay rule (or equivalently "network
> usage fee" regime), and all the data and graphs, please review this annex
> to a Brazilian study of the similar issue. It looks as if the jointly
> written study must have had an impact in the local discourse on the issue."
>
> https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7232
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:25 PM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Vint,
>>
>>
>> > On 7. Nov 2025, at 12:00, Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Frantisek,
>> > how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?
>>
>> Oh, the issue here is that Telekom sells data transport services to/from
>> the whole internet to its end customers with a given maximal capacity. So
>> customers can (and do) expect that the whole internet is accessible at that
>> rate at least as far this is within the control of Telekom. But Telekom is
>> notorious for not expanding its cost-neutral peering connections to the
>> other T1 ISPs and rather let them run "hotter" than traditionally done, so
>> that during primetime all connections reaching telekom eyeballs suffer from
>> increased delay, jitter and packet loss and consequently lower throughput.
>> The reason is that Telekom rather wants content providers to buy its rather
>> expensive "transit" or "peering" products instead of using their normal
>> transit provider.
>>
>>
>> > The
>> > latter is pretty common and even understandable.
>>
>> Yes, nobody considers that a violation of NN principles as this is an
>> orthogonal dimension and the consequences are clearly revealed to the end
>> user.
>>
>> > In the US, neutrality
>> > meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to
>> pay
>> > more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they
>> wanted,
>> > not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
>> > services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
>> > similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service.
>> In
>> > all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to
>> users
>> > and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
>> > carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all
>> services
>> > to all parties on the same terms.
>>
>> All fine... what Telekom has discovered is, that it can not selectively
>> throttle say all traffic to/from content provider A* without running afoul
>> of NN rules, but it can throttle ALL traffic running via specific peerings
>> indiscriminately by running that peering link too hot. The issue is IMHO
>> only partially Telekom's late stage capitalism play trying to extort money,
>> it is more the fact that our regulator (and all european regulators for
>> that matter) decided to turn a blind eye towards this "working-around" the
>> NN-regulations.
>> Telekom has capable PR wizards on the case that always frame this as
>> trying to get the big content providers to should their "fair share" iof
>> the cost of the network build out, ignoring that it already charges its
>> customers already for that purpose and manages to make a profit already.
>>
>> Regards
>>         Sebastian
>>
>> *) With the likely intent of selling special access to A to allow it to
>> avoid the throttling.
>>
>> >
>> > v
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
>> > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> DT is at it again:
>> >>
>> >> https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9
>> >>
>> >> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
>> >> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that
>> the
>> >> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
>> >> websites.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
>> >> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
>> >>
>> >> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
>> >> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
>> >> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
>> >> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
>> >> users."
>> >>
>> >> All the best,
>> >>
>> >> Frank
>> >>
>> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>> >>
>> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> >>
>> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> >>
>> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> >>
>> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >>
>> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> > Vint Cerf
>> > Google, LLC
>> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> > Reston, VA 20190
>> > +1 (571) 213 1346
>> >
>> >
>> > until further notice
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Livingood, Jason]

This is not a new case - IIRC it is the continuing “fair share” debate in the EU. I have not closely tracked the particulars but outside of the EU it is commonplace for there to be settlement free interconnection when traffic is balanced and paid interconnect when there is a significant imbalance. That is of course different from paid prioritization, which is the NN issue, where a particular network would be granted above best effort priority for a fee.

JL

From: Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Date: Friday, November 7, 2025 at 06:12
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Cc: Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
Subject: [NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

Looks to me, Vint, that this is different. It's not me as a customer paying
for a wider, faster pipe in the last-mile.

DT is asking content providers, like Netflix, to pay for their content to
be delivered in the "fast" lane.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GArMbsgI-bEZgkcaf2FGCXqYwZ7EjEFvafm_AbLNxPKLVAlZn_ULqskiAZqwk94SCJW0Atuc0Cs5SaNn8RnU6UhugMAWrO0R$


https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GArMbsgI-bEZgkcaf2FGCXqYwZ7EjEFvafm_AbLNxPKLVAlZn_ULqskiAZqwk94SCJW0Atuc0Cs5SaNn8RnU6UhugJx2msO0$

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:00 PM Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Frantisek,
> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth? The
> latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US, neutrality
> meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to pay
> more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they wanted,
> not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
> services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
> similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service. In
> all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to users
> and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
> carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all services
> to all parties on the same terms.
>
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> > DT is at it again:
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GArMbsgI-bEZgkcaf2FGCXqYwZ7EjEFvafm_AbLNxPKLVAlZn_ULqskiAZqwk94SCJW0Atuc0Cs5SaNn8RnU6UhugM_HsLeR$
> >
> > "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
> > German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that the
> > internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
> > websites.
> >
> > On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
> > complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
> >
> > The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
> > Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
> > Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
> > two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
> > users."
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> >
> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GArMbsgI-bEZgkcaf2FGCXqYwZ7EjEFvafm_AbLNxPKLVAlZn_ULqskiAZqwk94SCJW0Atuc0Cs5SaNn8RnU6UhugMAWrO0R$
> >
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!GArMbsgI-bEZgkcaf2FGCXqYwZ7EjEFvafm_AbLNxPKLVAlZn_ULqskiAZqwk94SCJW0Atuc0Cs5SaNn8RnU6UhugJx2msO0$
> >
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> >
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
> _______________________________________________
> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Livingood, Jason]

I’m reserving judgement on this one. It seems like they are sort of outsourcing management of the peer edge but using a 3rd party SDN to dynamically add peering capacity - rather than having to do physical cross connects as needed. Of course someone​ still has to do that so this just seems to outsource that and adds some level of automation to the management of peer edge capacity. Guess we shall see - but I do think the current peer management approach the industry tends to use could benefit from more automation and less reliance on individual manual work.

JL

From: Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Date: Friday, November 7, 2025 at 06:57
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Cc: Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
Subject: [NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

More to the fire:

"Is Vodafone brilliant? Or is it daft? What do you think? Apparently
Vodafone will stop all public and private hashtag#peering in Europe. The
press release of Vodafone and the news articles in Germany aren't fully
clear on how this will work."

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rudolfvanderberg_vodafone-selects-interlink-to-enhance-interconnection-activity-7392520708695883776-yjPQ/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTDg7Cdna$

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTE0hCua5$


https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTEoirq21$

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:47 PM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
wrote:

> To add more data to the case, here is South Korea disaster, covered
> by, Kyung Sin (KS) Park: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7292__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTFhSLNg-$
>
> "If you are interested in the competition analysis of the Korea's ISP
> market and the impact of the sender pay rule (or equivalently "network
> usage fee" regime), and all the data and graphs, please review this annex
> to a Brazilian study of the similar issue. It looks as if the jointly
> written study must have had an impact in the local discourse on the issue."
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.opennetkorea.org/en/wp/7232__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTJY0TblF$
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTE0hCua5$
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTEoirq21$
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:25 PM Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <
> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Vint,
>>
>>
>> > On 7. Nov 2025, at 12:00, Vint Cerf via Nnagain <
>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Frantisek,
>> > how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?
>>
>> Oh, the issue here is that Telekom sells data transport services to/from
>> the whole internet to its end customers with a given maximal capacity. So
>> customers can (and do) expect that the whole internet is accessible at that
>> rate at least as far this is within the control of Telekom. But Telekom is
>> notorious for not expanding its cost-neutral peering connections to the
>> other T1 ISPs and rather let them run "hotter" than traditionally done, so
>> that during primetime all connections reaching telekom eyeballs suffer from
>> increased delay, jitter and packet loss and consequently lower throughput.
>> The reason is that Telekom rather wants content providers to buy its rather
>> expensive "transit" or "peering" products instead of using their normal
>> transit provider.
>>
>>
>> > The
>> > latter is pretty common and even understandable.
>>
>> Yes, nobody considers that a violation of NN principles as this is an
>> orthogonal dimension and the consequences are clearly revealed to the end
>> user.
>>
>> > In the US, neutrality
>> > meant everyone has the same access rules which includes being able to
>> pay
>> > more for higher speed. The users got to determine what speed they
>> wanted,
>> > not the provider. Nor could the provider (ISP) choose arbitrarily which
>> > services the user would get at what speed. The application providers,
>> > similarly, get to choose what speed and cost they can provide service.
>> In
>> > all cases, the ISP does not get to dictate the speeds they offer to
>> users
>> > and application providers. The rule works more or less like common
>> > carriage. You pay for what you get, the carrier has to offer all
>> services
>> > to all parties on the same terms.
>>
>> All fine... what Telekom has discovered is, that it can not selectively
>> throttle say all traffic to/from content provider A* without running afoul
>> of NN rules, but it can throttle ALL traffic running via specific peerings
>> indiscriminately by running that peering link too hot. The issue is IMHO
>> only partially Telekom's late stage capitalism play trying to extort money,
>> it is more the fact that our regulator (and all european regulators for
>> that matter) decided to turn a blind eye towards this "working-around" the
>> NN-regulations.
>> Telekom has capable PR wizards on the case that always frame this as
>> trying to get the big content providers to should their "fair share" iof
>> the cost of the network build out, ignoring that it already charges its
>> customers already for that purpose and manages to make a profit already.
>>
>> Regards
>>         Sebastian
>>
>> *) With the likely intent of selling special access to A to allow it to
>> avoid the throttling.
>>
>> >
>> > v
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <
>> > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> DT is at it again:
>> >>
>> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTNh7cXKI$
>> >>
>> >> "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with the
>> >> German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom, alleging that
>> the
>> >> internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to access
>> >> websites.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their
>> >> complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.
>> >>
>> >> The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights, the
>> >> Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford professor
>> >> Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is creating a
>> >> two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra for Telekom’s
>> >> users."
>> >>
>> >> All the best,
>> >>
>> >> Frank
>> >>
>> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>> >>
>> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTE0hCua5$
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DXD3xcdspquGDgxhcy60RA4Nqd8QM27ckOsWIgVLbzA4aORwWmdflqN3rMbfy8yucyjXnEsJ9T7xeoYaMcHQtH3rTEoirq21$
>> >>
>> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> >>
>> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> >>
>> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >>
>> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> > Vint Cerf
>> > Google, LLC
>> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> > Reston, VA 20190
>> > +1 (571) 213 1346
>> >
>> >
>> > until further notice
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>
_______________________________________________
Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net
To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net

[NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet

[Richard Roy]

Seems to me (NANE - not a networking expert 😊) that this is a very complex optimization problem comprised of quasi-static facilities (networks with given characteristics ... peak BW/speed between many nodes/routers/etc..) and a massive number of end nodes (aka customers) with requirements ranging from source-only (providers) to receive-only (consumers) and everything in between.  Is it clear/obvious that all "end nodes" are created equal?  Does the efficacy of "Everyone pays at whatever rate they can afford/wish and is available." Depend on this?  Is NN assuming that they are? Inquiring minds ... 😊😊😊



Cheers,



RR



-----Original Message-----
From: Vint Cerf via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2025 3:20 AM
To: Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
Cc: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>
Subject: [NNagain] Re: Net Neutrality - a battle in Europe: Deutsche Telekom case shines light on 'two-speed' internet



definitely against neutrality as I understand it. Netflix can pay for big pipes to deliver content to users who pay for whatever rate they want to access that content. This is an attempt to create a two sided market when it is should be one-sided. Everyone pays at whatever rate they can afford/wish and is available.



On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 6:12 AM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>>

wrote:



> Looks to me, Vint, that this is different. It's not me as a customer

> paying for a wider, faster pipe in the last-mile.

>

> DT is asking content providers, like Netflix, to pay for their content

> to be delivered in the "fast" lane.

>

> All the best,

>

> Frank

>

> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

>

>

> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

>

> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/

>

>

> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

>

> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>

>

> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>

>

> Skype: casioa5302ca

>

> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com<mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>

>

>

> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:00 PM Vint Cerf via Nnagain <

> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

>

>> Frantisek,

>> how is a "fast lane" different from paying more for higher bandwidth?

>> The latter is pretty common and even understandable. In the US,

>> neutrality meant everyone has the same access rules which includes

>> being able to pay more for higher speed. The users got to determine

>> what speed they wanted, not the provider. Nor could the provider

>> (ISP) choose arbitrarily which services the user would get at what

>> speed. The application providers, similarly, get to choose what speed

>> and cost they can provide service. In all cases, the ISP does not get

>> to dictate the speeds they offer to users and application providers.

>> The rule works more or less like common carriage. You pay for what

>> you get, the carrier has to offer all services to all parties on the same terms.

>>

>> v

>>

>>

>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 5:13 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <

>> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:

>>

>> > DT is at it again:

>> >

>> > https://euobserver.com/digital/ar5da666d9

>> >

>> > "Earlier this year, Austrian and German NGOs filed a complaint with

>> > the German Federal Network Agency against Deutsche Telekom,

>> > alleging that

>> the

>> > internet service provider (ISP) is creating paid fast lanes to

>> > access websites.

>> >

>> > On Wednesday (5 November), the groups held a talk to outline their

>> > complaint and why it's important for Europe's net neutrality.

>> >

>> > The NGOs consists of Epicenter.works, the Society for Civil Rights,

>> > the Federation of German Consumer Organisations, plus Stanford

>> > professor Barbara van Schewick, arguing that Deutsche Telekom is

>> > creating a two-tiered internet through having web hosts pay extra

>> > for Telekom’s users."

>> >

>> > All the best,

>> >

>> > Frank

>> >

>> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

>> >

>> >

>> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025

>> >

>> > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/

>> >

>> >

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