From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F0653B2A4 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (jax4wmnode3b.mymail.myregisteredsite.com [209.237.134.215]) by atl4mhob02.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id 39HK6AeM009204 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:06:10 -0400 Received: (qmail 25505 invoked by uid 80); 17 Oct 2023 20:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (jack@3kitty.org@76.137.180.175) by 209.237.134.154 with ESMTPA; 17 Oct 2023 20:06:09 -0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 13:06:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <4c44a9ef4c4b14a06403e553e633717d@rjmcmahon.com> <150CFF4F99854A2F9DCC034476343836@SRA6> <3234A2D6-69C8-4506-9985-C52CC5EB4682@gmx.de> Content-Language: en-US From: Jack Haverty Autocrypt: addr=jack@3kitty.org; keydata= xsDNBGCm2psBDADGOWO8n9wfkDW9ZUEo8o+SZ5MU9us2il+fS4EFM/RaZFIbQ+P72bExzSd3 WnJdPfqO1O7Q+dRnvVO9+G2/9oT/uRZVaE05+SothzKZBv32HcZoUkdNZOTqSkdo3EwNPjid LLxX+dMBxMpR3pBdvGN8Z7lnZe6fV4QO2xtd58y3B33AVZJp+RuNwucby9dY2meyy2BJVKrx mKhYXAucVyg0ALVIchHt9UknVW4aLvQF+oMfzXVvCWeguW+DvbyazVceWGO7FSgUJ8ED3Ii7 xAR5zZJ1LASoMhG1ixg07P9Uy4ohV6c+c0yV9SY4yqhZ3+zN2cm9h/aXpwjSuiVVAJbK7zzb FjI+h89dbnaVQrLx6GikV0OVYqC6TCeMfCFZQAJLs1icxQi3BLL7O1fbTGatEfTgLa5nqfKq K/D/HlOCUeFxqZI8hXvT5dG4e1m3ilpF2/ytcWKSVg3d699UFntPv3sEbAQwwfXsnuD4Hem6 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boundary="------------e3ZI0kRLOkhth1bXjpQkTex0" Subject: Re: [NNagain] NN and freedom of speech, and whether there is worthwhile good-faith discussion in that direction X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 20:06:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------e3ZI0kRLOkhth1bXjpQkTex0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------g299Xolw28ByENqKNJ6FsOUW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Jack Haverty To: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-ID: Subject: Re: [NNagain] NN and freedom of speech, and whether there is worthwhile good-faith discussion in that direction References: <4c44a9ef4c4b14a06403e553e633717d@rjmcmahon.com> <150CFF4F99854A2F9DCC034476343836@SRA6> 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4+PiBObmFnYWluIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+ PiBObmFnYWluQGxpc3RzLmJ1ZmZlcmJsb2F0Lm5ldA0KPj4+PiBodHRwczovL2xpc3RzLmJ1 ZmZlcmJsb2F0Lm5ldC9saXN0aW5mby9ubmFnYWluDQo+Pj4NCj4+DQo+PiBfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gTm5hZ2FpbiBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IE5uYWdhaW5AbGlzdHMuYnVmZmVyYmxvYXQubmV0DQo+PiBodHRwczov L2xpc3RzLmJ1ZmZlcmJsb2F0Lm5ldC9saXN0aW5mby9ubmFnYWluDQo+DQo+DQo+IF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IE5uYWdhaW4g bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IE5uYWdhaW5AbGlzdHMuYnVmZmVyYmxvYXQubmV0DQo+IGh0dHBz Oi8vbGlzdHMuYnVmZmVyYmxvYXQubmV0L2xpc3RpbmZvL25uYWdhaW4NCg0K --------------hnaULdhvlwjlo9EBLOS6eJno Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I introduced the VGV acronym, I used Gaming as the G, but that was probably misleading.=C2=A0 There are many "use cases" other than gaming.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A better term might be Interactive, and a VIV acr= onym.=C2=A0

Personally, I've been experimenting with "home automation", and have found the cloud-based schemes to be intolerable.=C2=A0=C2=A0 When you= flip a light switch, you expect the light to come on almost instantly, and cloud-based mechanisms are disturbingly inconsistent, possibly due to variability in latency.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lights turning on 20 seconds a= fter you flip the switch is unacceptable.

There are other such "serious" Interactive use cases not related to Gaming.=C2=A0 Consider, for example, a "driverless" vehicle which rel= ies on the ability for a human at some remote control center to "take over" control of a vehicle when necessary.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or a power pla= nt, or medical device, or ...

IMHO, "Use Cases" are the foundation to setting good policy and regulation.=C2=A0 What should Users expect to be able to do when usin= g the Internet?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Back in the early days, the design of Internet mechanisms was driven by several "use cases".=C2=A0 Since the project was funded by the military, the use cases were also military.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But humans ne= ed similar kinds of communications, whether they are exchanging commands to the troops or tweets to the forums.

One such "use case" motivated the concern for latency.=C2=A0 The scen= ario was simple.=C2=A0 An army is engaged in some action, and an online conference is being held amongst all the players, from the generals in HQs to the field commanders in tents or even jeeps or airplanes.=C2= =A0 The conference supports multimedia interactions, using something like a "shared whiteboard" that everyone can see (video was just a dream in 1980) and change using a mouse or some kind of pointer device.

In such a scenario, the participants might be viewing a map, and exchanging information while pointing on the map.=C2=A0 "The enemy HQ= is here."=C2=A0 "Our patrol is here."=C2=A0 "Send the battalion here."=C2= =A0 "We'll order artillery to strike here."=C2=A0 It's very important that the pointing is synchronized with the speech, and that the graphics and speech are delivered intact.

Those scenarios motivated the inclusion of Internet mechanisms such as SQ, TTL, TOS et al.
=C2=A0
Such scenarios are used today, quite frequently, in normal everyday life by humans in all sorts of activities.=C2=A0 They're no longer ju= st military situations.

Considering "freedom of speech", what are the Use Cases that the Internet must support?=C2=A0 Setting aside the question of what can b= e said, are there other aspects of freedom of speech?=C2=A0

One example - assuming people should have the right to speak anonymously, should they also have the right to speak non-anonymously?=C2=A0 Should someone have the right to know that spe= ech attributed to some person actually was spoken by that person?

Today, regulators are dealing with this question in other venues, e.g., by adding, and enforcing, the notion of "verified" telephone numbers, in response to the tsunami of robocalls, phishing, and such activities.=C2=A0 Should the Internet also provide a way to verify th= e sources of emails, blog posts, etc.?

I've "digitally signed" this message, using the technology which I found in my email program. =C2=A0 Maybe that will enable you to belie= ve that I actually wrote this message. =C2=A0 But I rarely receive any "signed" email, except occasionally from members of the Technorati.=C2= =A0 Perhaps the requirement to be anonymous is just part of the Internet now? =C2=A0 Or is that a Use Case that simply hasn't been developed, propagated, and enforced yet?

What are the "Use Cases" that the Internet must support, and that regulators should enforce?

Jack Haverty
=C2=A0


On 10/17/23 10:26, Spencer Sevilla via= Nnagain wrote:
I know this is a small side note but I felt compelled to speak up in defense of online gaming. I=E2=80=99m not a gamer at all and up = till a year or two ago, would have agreed with Dick=E2=80=99s take about b= enefit to =E2=80=9Csociety as a whole.=E2=80=9D However, lately I=E2=80=99= ve started hearing some research on the benefits of groups of friends using online games to socialize together, effectively using the game primarily as a group call.

There=E2=80=99s also this project, where people have collected= banned/censored books into a library in Minecraft. Specifically as a solution to contexts where regulators/censors ban and monitor content through other channels (websites etc) but don=E2=80= =99t surveil Minecraft... Presumably because they share Dick=E2=80=99s= opinion ;-)=C2=A0https:= //www.uncensoredlibrary.com/en

On Oct 17, 2023, at 03:26, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>= wrote:

Hi Richard,


On Oct 16, 2023, at 20:04, Dick Roy <dickroy@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

Good points all, Sebastien. =C2=A0How to "trade-off" a fixed capacity amongst many users is ultimately a game theoretic problem when users are allowed to make choices, which is certainly the case here. =C2=A0Second= ly, any network that can and does generate "more traffic" (aka overhead such as ACKs NACKs and retries) reduces the capacity of the network, and ultimately can lead to the "user" capacity going to zero! =C2=A0Such is lif= e in the fast lane (aka the internet).

Lastly, on the issue of low-latency real-time experience, there are many applications that need/want such capabilities that actually have a net benefit to the individuals involved AND to society as a whole. =C2=A0IMO, interactive gaming is NOT one of those.

[SM= ] Yes, gaming is one obvious example of a class of uses that work best with low latency and low jitter, not necessarily an example for a use-case worthy enough to justify the work required to increase the responsiveness of the internet. Other examples are video conferences, VoIP, in extension of both musical collaboration over the internet, and surprising to some even plain old web browsing (it often needs to first read a page before being able to follow links and load resources, and every read takes at best a single RTT). None of these are inherently beneficial or detrimental to individuals or society, but most can be used to improve the status quo... I would argue that in the last 4 years the relevance of interactive use-cases has been made quite clear to a lot of folks...


OK, so now you know I don't engage in these time sinks with no redeeming social value.:)

[SM= ] Duly noted ;)

Since it is not hard to argue that just like power distribution, information exchange/dissemination is "in the public interest", the question becomes "Do we allow any and all forms of information exchange/dissemination over what is becoming something akin to a public utility?" =C2=A0FWIW, I don't know the= answer to this question! :)

[SM= ] This is an interesting question and one (only) tangentially related to network neutrality... it is more related to freedom of speech and limits thereof. Maybe a question for another mailing list? Certainly one meriting a topic change...


Reg= ards
Seb= astian


Cheers,

RR

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]=C2=A0
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 10:36 AM
To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu; Network Neutrality is b= ack! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!<= br> Subject: Re: [NNagain] transit and peering costs projections

Hi Richard,


On Oct 16, 2023, at 19:01, Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wro= te:

Just an observation: =C2=A0ANY type of congestion con= trol that changes application behavior in response to congestion, or predicted congestion (ENC), begs the question "How does throttling of application information exchange rate (aka behavior) affect the user experience and will the user tolerate it?"=C2=A0

[SM] The trade-off here is, if the application does not respond (or rather if no application would respond) we would end up with congestion collapse where no application would gain much of anything as the network busies itself trying to re-transmit dropped packets without making much head way... Simplistic game theory application might imply that individual applications could try to game this, and generally that seems to be true, but we have remedies for that available..



Given any (complex and packet-switched) network topology of interconnected nodes and links, each with possible a different capacity and characteristics, such as the internet today, IMO the two fundamental questions are:

1) How can a given network be operated/configured so as to maximize aggregate throughput (i.e. achieve its theoretical capacity), and
2) What things in the network need to change to increase the throughput (aka parameters in the network with the largest Lagrange multipliers associated with them)?

[SM] The thing is we generally know how to maximize (average) throughput, just add (over-)generous amounts of buffering, the problem is that this screws up the other important quality axis, latency... We ideally want low latency and even more low latency variance (aka jitter) AND high throughput... Turns out though that above a certain throughput threshold* many users do not seem to care all that much for more throughput as long as interactive use cases are sufficiently responsive... but high responsiveness requires low latency and low jitter... This is actually a good thing, as that means we do not necessarily aim for 100% utilization (almost requiring deep buffers and hence resulting in compromised latency) but can get away with say 80-90% where shallow buffers will do (or rather where buffer filling stays shallow, there is IMHO still value in having deep buffers for rare events that need it).



*) This is not a hard physical law so the exact threshold is not set in stone, but unless one has many parallel users, something in the 20-50 Mbps range is plenty and that is only needed in the "loaded" direction, that is for pure consumers the upload can be thinner, for pure producers the download can be thinner.



I am not an expert in this field,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0[SM] Nor am I, I come fro= m the wet-ware side of things so not even soft- or hard-ware ;)


however it seems to me that answers to these questions would be useful, assuming they are not yet available!

Cheers,

RR



-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferb= loat.net] On Behalf Of rjmcmahon via Nnagain
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2023 1:39 PM
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the technical aspects heard this time!
Cc: rjmcmahon
Subject: Re: [NNagain] transit and peering costs projections

Hi Jack,

Thanks again for sharing. It's very interesting to me.

Today, the networks are shifting from capacity constrained to latency=C2=A0
constrained, as can be seen in the IX discussions about how the speed of=C2=A0
light over fiber is too slow even between Houston & Dallas.

The mitigations against standing queues (which cause bloat today) are:

o) Shrink the e2e bottleneck queue so it will drop packets in a flow and=C2=A0
TCP will respond to that "signal"
o) Use some form of ECN marking where the network forwarding plane=C2=A0
ultimately informs the TCP source state machine so it can slow down or=C2=A0
pace effectively. This can be an earlier feedback signal and, if done=C2=A0
well, can inform the sources to avoid bottleneck queuing. There are=C2=A0
couple of approaches with ECN. Comcast is trialing L4S now which seems=C2=A0
interesting to me as a WiFi test & measurement engineer. The jury is=C2=A0
still out on this and measurements are needed.
o) Mitigate source side bloat via TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT
The QoS priority approach per congestion is orthogonal by my judgment as=C2=A0
it's typically not supported e2e, many networks will bleach DSCP=C2=A0=
markings. And it's really too late by my judgment.
Also, on clock sync, yes your generation did us both a service and=C2= =A0
disservice by getting rid of the PSTN TDM clock ;) So IP networking=C2=A0
devices kinda ignored clock sync, which makes e2e one way delay (OWD)=C2=A0
measurements impossible. Thankfully, the GPS atomic clock is now=C2= =A0
available mostly everywhere and many devices use TCXO oscillators so=C2=A0
it's possible to get clock sync and use oscillators that can minimize=C2=A0
drift. I pay $14 for a Rpi4 GPS chip with pulse per second as an=C2= =A0
example.

It seems silly to me that clocks aren't synced to the GPS atomic clock=C2=A0
even if by a proxy even if only for measurement and monitoring.

Note: As Richard Roy will point out, there really is no such thing as=C2=A0
synchronized clocks across geographies per general relativity - so those=C2=A0
syncing clocks need to keep those effects in mind. I limited the iperf 2=C2=A0
timestamps to microsecond precision in hopes avoiding those issues.

Note: With WiFi, a packet drop can occur because an intermittent RF= =C2=A0
channel condition. TCP can't tell the difference between an RF drop vs a=C2=A0
congested queue drop. That's another reason ECN markings from network=C2=A0
devices may be better than dropped packets.

Note: I've added some iperf 2 test support around pacing as that seems=C2=A0
to be the direction the industry is heading as networks are less and=C2=A0
less capacity strained and user quality of experience is being driven by=C2=A0
tail latencies. One can also test with the Prague CCA for the L4S= =C2=A0
scenarios. (This is a fun project: https://www.l4sgear.com/ and fairly=C2=A0
low cost)

--fq-rate n[kmgKMG]
Set a rate to be used with fair-queuing based socket-level pacing, in=C2=A0
bytes or bits per second. Only available on platforms supporting the=C2=A0
SO_MAX_PACING_RATE socket option. (Note: Here the suffixes indicate=C2=A0
bytes/sec or bits/sec per use of uppercase or lowercase, respectively)

--fq-rate-step n[kmgKMG]
Set a step of rate to be used with fair-queuing based socket-level=C2=A0
pacing, in bytes or bits per second. Step occurs every=C2=A0
fq-rate-step-interval (defaults to one second)

--fq-rate-step-interval n
Time in seconds before stepping the fq-rate

Bob

PS. Iperf 2 man page https://iperf2.sourceforge.io/ipe= rf-manpage.html

The "VGV User" (Voice, Gaming, Videoconferencing) cares a lot about
latency. =C2=A0=C2=A0It's not just "rewarding" to h= ave lower latencies; high
latencies may make VGV unusable. =C2=A0=C2=A0Averag= e (or "typical") latency as
the FCC label proposes isn't a good metric to judge usability. =C2=A0A path
which has high variance in latency can be unusable even if the average
is quite low. =C2=A0=C2=A0Having your voice or vide= o or gameplay "break up"
every minute or so when latency spikes to 500 msec makes the "user
experience" intolerable.

A few years ago, I ran some simple "ping" tests to help a friend who
was trying to use a gaming app. =C2=A0My data was o= nly for one specific
path so it's anecdotal. =C2=A0What I saw was surpri= sing - zero data loss,
every datagram was delivered, but occasionally a datagram would take
up to 30 seconds to arrive. =C2=A0I didn't have the= ability to poke around
inside, but I suspected it was an experience of "bufferbloat", enabled
by the dramatic drop in price of memory over the decades.

It's been a long time since I was involved in operating any part of
the Internet, so I don't know much about the inner workings today.
Apologies for my ignorance....

There was a scenario in the early days of the Internet for which we
struggled to find a technical solution. =C2=A0Imagi= ne some node in the
bowels of the network, with 3 connected "circuits" to some other
nodes. =C2=A0On two of those inputs, traffic is arriving to be forwarded
out the third circuit. =C2=A0The incoming flows are= significantly more than
the outgoing path can accept.

What happens? =C2=A0=C2=A0How is "backpressure" gen= erated so that the incoming
flows are reduced to the point that the outgoing circuit can handle
the traffic?

About 45 years ago, while we were defining TCPV4, we struggled with
this issue, but didn't find any consensus solutions. =C2=A0So "placeholder"
mechanisms were defined in TCPV4, to be replaced as research continued
and found a good solution.

In that "placeholder" scheme, the "Source Quench" (SQ) IP message was
defined; it was to be sent by a switching node back toward the sender
of any datagram that had to be discarded because there wasn't any
place to put it.

In addition, the TOS (Type Of Service) and TTL (Time To Live) fields
were defined in IP.

TOS would allow the sender to distinguish datagrams based on their
needs. =C2=A0For example, we thought "Interactive" service might be needed
for VGV traffic, where timeliness of delivery was most important.=C2=A0
"Bulk" service might be useful for activities like file transfers,
backups, et al. =C2=A0=C2=A0"Normal" service might = now mean activities like
using the Web.

The TTL field was an attempt to inform each switching node about the
"expiration date" for a datagram. =C2=A0=C2=A0If a = node somehow knew that a
particular datagram was unlikely to reach its destination in time to
be useful (such as a video datagram for a frame that has already been
displayed), the node could, and should, discard that datagram to free
up resources for useful traffic. =C2=A0Sadly we had= no mechanisms for
measuring delay, either in transit or in queuing, so TTL was defined
in terms of "hops", which is not an accurate proxy for time. =C2=A0=C2=A0But
it's all we had.

Part of the complexity was that the "flow control" mechanism of the
Internet had put much of the mechanism in the users' computers' TCP
implementations, rather than the switches which handle only IP.
Without mechanisms in the users' computers, all a switch could do is
order more circuits, and add more memory to the switches for queuing.=C2=A0
= Perhaps that led to "bufferbloat".

So TOS, SQ, and TTL were all placeholders, for some mechanism in a
future release that would introduce a "real" form of Backpressure and
the ability to handle different types of traffic. =C2=A0=C2=A0Meanwhile, these
rudimentary mechanisms would provide some flow control. Hopefully the
users' computers sending the flows would respond to the SQ
backpressure, and switches would prioritize traffic using the TTL and
TOS information.

But, being way out of touch, I don't know what actually happens
today. =C2=A0Perhaps the current operators and curr= ent government watchers
can answer?:git clone https://rjmcmahon@git.code.sf.ne= t/p/iperf2/code=C2=A0
= iperf2-code

1/ How do current switches exert Backpressure to =C2=A0reduce competing
traffic flows? =C2=A0Do they still send SQs?

2/ How do the current and proposed government regulations treat the
different needs of different types of traffic, e.g., "Bulk" versus
"Interactive" versus "Normal"? =C2=A0Are Internet carriers permitted to
treat traffic types differently? =C2=A0Are they permitted to charge
different amounts for different types of service?
Jack Haverty

On 10/15/23 09:45, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:
=
For starters I would like= to apologize for cc-ing both nanog and my
new nn list. (I will add sender filters)

A bit more below.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM Tom Beech= er <beecher@beecher.cc>=C2=A0 wrote:
So for now, we'll kee= p paying for transit to get to the others=C2=A0
(since it=E2=80=99s about as much as transpor= ting IXP from Dallas), and=C2=A0
hoping someone at Google finally sees Houston as more than a third=C2=A0
rate city hanging off of Dallas. Or=E2=80=A6 = someone finally brings a=C2=A0
worthwhile IX to Houston that gets us more than peering to Kansas=C2=A0
City. Yeah, I think the former is more likely. =F0=9F=98=8A

There is often a chicken/egg scenario here with the economics. As an=C2=A0=
eyeball network, your costs to build out and connect to Dallas are=C2=A0=
greater than your transit cost, so you do that. Totally fair.

However think about it from the content side. Say I want to build=C2=A0=
into to Houston. I have to put routers in, and a bunch of cache=C2=A0=
servers, so I have capital outlay , plus opex for space, power,=C2=A0=
IX/backhaul/transit costs. That's not cheap, so there's a lot of=C2=A0=
calculations that go into it. Is there enough total eyeball traffic=C2=A0=
there to make it worth it? Is saving 8-10ms enough of a performance=C2=A0=
boost to justify the spend? What are the long term trends in that=C2=A0=
market? These answers are of course different for a company running=C2=A0=
their own CDN vs the commercial CDNs.

I don't work for Google and obviously don't speak for them, but I=C2=A0=
would suspect that they're happy to eat a 8-10ms performance hit to=C2=A0=
serve from Dallas , versus the amount of capital outlay to build out=C2=A0=
there right now.
The three forms of traffic I care most about are voip, gaming, and
videoconferencing, which are rewarding to have at lower latencies.
When I was a kid, we had switched phone networks, and while the sound
quality was poorer than today, the voice latency cross-town was just
like "being there". Nowadays we see 500+ms latencies for this kind of
traffic.

As to how to make calls across town work that well again, cost-wise, I
do not know, but the volume of traffic that would be better served by
these interconnects quite low, respective to the overall gains in
lower latency experiences for them.



On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at= 11:47=E2=80=AFPM Tim Burke <tim@mid.net> wrote:=
I would say that a 1Gbit IP transit in a carrier neutral DC can be=C2=A0=
had for a good bit less than $900 on the wholesale market.

Sadly, IXP=E2=80=99s are seemingly turning in= to a pay to play game, with=C2=A0
rates almost costing as much as transit in many cases after you=C2=A0
factor in loop costs.

For example, in the Houston market (one of the largest and fastest=C2=A0
growing regions in the US!), we do not have a major IX, so to get up=C2=A0
to Dallas it=E2=80=99s several thousand for a= 100g wave, plus several=C2=A0
thousand for a 100g port on one of those major IXes. Or, a better=C2=A0
option, we can get a 100g flat internet transit for just a little=C2=A0
bit more.

Fortunately, for us as an eyeball network, there are a good number=C2=A0
of major content networks that are allowing for private peering in=C2=A0
markets like Houston for just the cost of a cross connect and a QSFP=C2=A0
if you=E2=80=99re in the right DC, with Googl= e and some others being the=C2=A0
outliers.

So for now, we'll keep paying for transit to get to the others=C2=A0
(since it=E2=80=99s about as much as transpor= ting IXP from Dallas), and=C2=A0
hoping someone at Google finally sees Houston as more than a third=C2=A0
rate city hanging off of Dallas. Or=E2=80=A6 = someone finally brings a=C2=A0
worthwhile IX to Houston that gets us more than peering to Kansas=C2=A0
City. Yeah, I think the former is more likely. =F0=9F=98=8A

See y=E2=80=99all in San Diego this week,
= Tim

On Oct 14, 2023, at 18:04, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
=EF=BB=BFThis set o= f trendlines was very interesting. Unfortunately the=C2=A0
data
stops in 2015. Does anyone have more recent data?

https://drpee= ring.net/white-papers/Internet-Transit-Pricing-Historical-And-Projected.p= hp

I believe a gbit circuit that an ISP can resell still runs at about
$900 - $1.4k (?) in the usa? How about elsewhere?

...

I am under the impression that many IXPs remain very successful,
states without them suffer, and I also find the concept of doing=C2=A0
micro
IXPs at the city level, appealing, and now achievable with cheap=C2=A0
gear.
Finer grained cross connects between telco and ISP and IXP would=C2=A0
lower
latencies across town quite hugely...

PS I hear ARIN is planning on dropping the price for, and bundling=C2=A0
3
BGP AS numbers at a time, as of the end of this year, also.



--
Oct 30:=C2=A0
https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news= /the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos



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