From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A8D93B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6A4CE1B25E; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 14:55:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 6A4CE1B25E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1709247305; bh=2jwApIo5r+eV/t9xmh8dVFYRzA4uWrHo6Tqvm/jKzEY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=bapFO8ImHVrM3TpSq1ay5dzRMVyMvtYyBrrn8Gh3qjfd7sNYNBJeowXkX4A4duVOI dHRbgjjXozyfZMZNgc6c8PB/J8qVQ2jQrxtyafIIOLt3zOZDGMDAU8UBVWmL52pGq2 2SVyCbDIFNIDM/30HyH4KJGDt2OygIGUe0g3oS+o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 14:55:05 -0800 From: rjmcmahon To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_a?= =?UTF-8?Q?spects_heard_this_time!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [NNagain] Geoff Huston's panel X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:55:06 -0000 Get rid of the advertisers as the source of funds and everything changes. This projection was obvious from how radio and television rolled out in their days, being driven by Kraft TV and those soap operas. The show was built for the ad, not the other way around. It's also not a technology thing but a content creator's getting paid thing, again all so an ad can be delivered. The dearth in high quality content is that people will have to pay. We may never pay but that's on us and our free rider thinking vs on technology or comm infra. We said goodbye to journalists as Yahoo did in 2000 when asked if they would ever pay one for the news articles they were "stealing" and the young execs said, "No. I don't see why I would have to." Our communications networks have to move beyond entertainment and social affirmations. They have to become life support capable. This includes in home WiFi networks. Just as every power receptacle in a house isn't for a TV, a network comm channel, port or whatever it's called, is not only for a humans directly either, at least not per our very limited 5 sensory system and our error prone brains. Machines and senors are going to be a major sea change but it's hard work to get there, particularly when building off a last mile infrastructure built for HBO and NFL. Or legacy isn't about advertising from the broadcast networks or about some of the worst computers possible, something now called a smart phone, which isn't true. It's not about AI, VR, AR etc either. It's about communications as fundamental infrastructure and everything that entails which goes way beyond ip addresses and CDNs. Fields like linguistics come to mind. Predicting the future from the past is easy. Making a different future other than the past is hard. What's old is new again until somebody decides to actually innovate. Just my $0.02, Bob > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 12:26 PM Lee via Nnagain > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:12 AM Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >> > >> > He is being incredibly provocative this week. It hurt to sit through this. >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxO73fH0VqM >> >> Yes, he's provocative - but also entertaining. And don't forget the >> audience: > > >> ABOUT APRICOT >> >> Representing Asia Pacific's largest international Internet conference, >> Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies >> (APRICOT) draws many of the world's best Internet engineers, >> operators, researchers, service providers, users and policy >> communities from over 50 countries to teach, present, and do their own >> human networking. >> >> His last slide deck seemed to be a call to arms. He's near the end of >> his career, so for all the Internet engineers, etc. I saw it as a >> "here's where we're going. Do you want to contribute to this trend or >> take the Internet in a different direction?" > > I perceive the internet as a communications network, not just as a > content one. Chat, email, and other bidirectional communications > are the most useful parts of it, and cannot be cached. > >> >> For example, after talking about CDNs and how most content is now >> local he brings up the bit about if 10% of your traffic costs you 90% >> of your carriage costs, if I was a rational provider, I would say to >> all those customers who need that 10% of the traffic go find someone >> else. I'm not going to do it. Don't forget, this is a deregulated >> world - you can do that. There is no universal obligation to carry >> default. > > So the audience was in the cheap seats in the back like me, were > silently grinding their teeth? > >> Does network neutrality require an ISP to connect you to the Internet >> at large? Or do they get to drop the "expensive" traffic that >> requires connecting to a transit provider (or however they do it now >> to connect to the global Internet). >> >> I was a bit dubious about the assertion that most traffic stays within >> the AS but surprise, surprise, surprise (most people here are old >> enough to remember Gomer Pyle.. right?).. youtube content is in the >> Verizon network. Start wireshark, get the IP address of the youtube >> server and >> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:803:f00::e >> traceroute to 2600:803:f00::e (2600:803:f00::e), 30 hops max, 72 byte >> packets >> <.. snip ..> >> 3 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.323 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 >> [AS701] 2.542 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 [AS701] 33.315 ms >> 4 * * * >> 5 2600:803:6af::6 [AS701] 3.843 ms 3.838 ms 3.834 ms >> 6 2600:803:f00::e [AS701] 2.911 ms 2.216 ms 2.472 ms >> >> Do the same for Netflix and I get three [??] different ASs: >> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 >> traceroute to 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 >> (2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617), 30 hops max, 72 byte >> packets >> <.. snip ..> >> 5 2600:803:9af::82 [AS701] 8.048 ms 2600:803:9af::5a [AS701] 8.297 >> ms 2600:803:2::5a [AS701] 8.294 ms >> 6 * 2620:107:4000:c5c0::f3fd:f [*] 2.846 ms >> 2620:107:4000:c5c1::f3fd:20 [*] 2.810 ms >> 7 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d5b1 [*] 8.148 ms >> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f203:54b1 [*] 5.289 ms >> 2620:107:4000:cfff::f202:d4b1 [*] 4.300 ms >> 8 2620:107:4000:a793::f000:3863 [*] 4.865 ms >> 2620:107:4000:a610::f000:2403 [*] 5.245 ms >> 2620:107:4000:acd3::f000:e060 [*] 5.201 ms >> 9 * * * >> 10 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 4.881 >> ms 4.864 ms 4.848 ms >> 11 2600:1f18:631e:2f84:4f7a:4092:e2e9:c617 [AS14618/AS16509] 6.351 >> ms 6.075 ms 5.935 ms >> >> Does it violate network neutrality that youtube content takes the >> "fast lane" getting to me? >> >> and just for chuckles.. >> $ dig 2024.apricot.net aaaa +short >> 2001:dd8:f::1 > > Anycast technology can certainly be applied to more parts of the > internet than it is today. > > QUIC tho, seems to enable the idea that all of google could run off of > 8.8.8.9, all of cloudflare, 1.1.1.9, etc. > >> >> $ sudo traceroute -6TAn 2001:dd8:f::1 >> traceroute to 2001:dd8:f::1 (2001:dd8:f::1), 30 hops max, 72 byte >> packets >> <.. snip ..> >> 3 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.390 ms 2600:4000:1:236::326 >> [AS701] 5.711 ms 2600:4000:1:236::324 [AS701] 27.384 ms >> 4 * * * >> 5 * * 2001:2035:0:bb3::1 [AS1299] 7.235 ms >> 6 2001:2034:1:73::1 [AS1299] 7.763 ms 6.033 ms 5.996 ms >> 7 2001:2034:1:b7::1 [AS1299] 11.530 ms 2001:2034:1:b8::1 [AS1299] >> 10.704 ms * >> 8 * * * >> 9 2001:2000:3080:230d::2 [AS1299] 72.609 ms 72.594 ms 73.096 ms >> 10 * * * >> 11 * * * >> 12 * * * >> 13 * 2402:7800:10::2 [AS4826] 289.033 ms * >> 14 2402:7800:10:1::12 [AS4826] 290.608 ms 292.440 ms 290.840 ms >> 15 2402:7800:10:8::16 [AS4826] 228.836 ms 229.406 ms 231.379 ms >> 16 2001:dd8:8:38::2 [AS4608] 233.803 ms 231.332 ms 233.572 ms >> 17 2001:dd8:f::1 [AS4608] 231.822 ms 231.137 ms 232.772 ms >> >> Oh my.. I'm betting that's a lot more than 100 miles away :) >> >> Regards, >> Lee >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain