On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, David Bray, PhD wrote: > Also signatures and the like only work for things where you actively > attest. > > What if it's a supposed photo, video, or other claims that a person did (or > did not do) something. Sadly we know eyewitness testimony actually is > replete with errors... which is why heretofore "roll the video tape" > (you're at least a Gen X'er or older if you recall video tapes) has been > what courts relied upon: > https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ > > What do we do if that's now questioned? Watermarking of photos, audio, and > videos can be overcome - and, sadly, may actually super-empower either > surveillance states or authoritarian states to "control" media. So free and > pluralistic societies will be especially challenged here? signing the images and then the reputation of the person doing the signing. now, this doesn't solve the court problem, but there I would say there needs to be multiple sources in any case. David Lang > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 5:08 PM David Lang via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> signatures work, but how do you know what signatures to trust? the current >> approach of 'trust signatures where they have paid one of a few companies' >> is >> not going to work. There will need to be some sort of decentralized >> reputation >> system where you can pick who you trust >> >> Yes, some people will chose to trust people who feed them fakes. That is >> better >> than giving any one entity the ability to declare anything as "true, don't >> you >> dare question it" (as we have seen over the last few years) >> >> David Lang >> >> >> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote: >> >>> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500 >>> From: Dave Taht via Nnagain >>> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard >> this >>> time! >>> Cc: Dave Taht >>> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic vs. >>> inauthentic information and identity >>> >>> Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the >>> internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN >>> issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these. >>> >>> In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in >>> terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon >>> cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind >>> - https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407 >>> >>> When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had >>> my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into >>> everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media begin >>> to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to >>> it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to >>> hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the >>> technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like >>> crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment >>> is down 70% this year... >>> >>> I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed in the real >>> world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community >>> notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general, >>> the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they >>> learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in. >>> >>> Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but >>> trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For >>> example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial. Too >>> few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her >>> blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" that, and >>> me, take a lisinopril. >>> >>> Life's just a ride, tho, you know? >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32 AM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear NNAgain’ers, >>>> >>>> Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense >> will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize this >> is not NN-related and so if it isn’t of interest, I apologize in advance. >> However as most of us have technology background here, my sense is we >> generally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical folks >> at the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving problem >> space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the >> diversity of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential >> solutions necessary for civil societies to continue: >>>> >>>> Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where >> inauthenticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that >> involves multiple forms of content including biometrics and more. >>>> >>>> In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however >> it’s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like the U.S. >> where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to play in >> verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have had public >> trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn’t help that both politics >> and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authentic when they’re >> often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, mix facts with lots of >> beliefs). >>>> >>>> Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a “home field” >> advantage here because there is only one singular narrative - and anyone >> who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disappeared, or >> killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering, censorship, >> and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authentic or >> not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their population. >> Pluralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten years will >> pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded by >> both media and mediums of questionable authenticity. >>>> >>>> Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional >> People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM data >> with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of the >> CRM, “out of band” questions could be included to do some sort of >> additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who they >> claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger concerns >> that SF’s software, give some of its features, could be misused in ways not >> intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analytica) and they >> were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features to prevent >> actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intended by them as >> a company. >>>> >>>> 2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see, >> hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier. >>>> >>>> Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation, >> triangulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern >> authenticity vs. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard. Perhaps we >> need to consider standing up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like entities >> for identity and other important adjudicatory functions - however that >> doesn’t immediately solve the issue of how to help the public in a would >> experiencing a flood of questionable content, information, and identities? >> And who “watches” the adjudicators? >>>> >>>> David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc. >>>> Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow >>>> Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 40 years of net history, a couple songs: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E >>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >