On Oct 18, 2023, at 7:05 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:

It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only.

The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset value add for whole home, life support capable, future proof, low power, structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857.

Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls and no patch and paint.

All homes sold in the U.S. will have to do this per 2027 fire codes. The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the $2,857. Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for landlords. Rent increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be known until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks.

No, all NEW homes built will need it, old homes do not need to be retrofitted.
This is normal for many things.

It's cheap to do this sort of thing when a house is built, it's FAR more
expensive to retrofit a house.

David Lang

No security vulnerabilities compared to those found in Linux computers. The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics. No general purpose CPU to exploit.

https://www.scmagazine.com/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug

Bob

On Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics too.
Not
sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16
MIMO radios
at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw
compression/decompression, I
think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K. And the content
will
likely be coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI
cable kinda
goes away.

until you have a few people in an area all trying to do the same thing,
not they
EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and it just doesn't work
well.

Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests of cables to
connect
things. My thoughts are no more cables other than structured fiber
and
structured AC which both are long lived, multiple decades or more,
and hence
are a one and done type of spend.

It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (power, video,
etc) than
it is to go completely wireless when you are stationary.

I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm. I've installed AFCI
circuit
breakers for all my family, including the in laws. These can trigger
easily
when other signals are multiplexed.

There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11
people died
including children. An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented that
fire.
Working auto door closers would have helped. Providing heat pumps
would have
helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space
heaters which
are terrible by my judgment.

It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burned down too. We've got so
improvement to do on life support systems.

what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? (ROI timeframe),
that's
usually overlooked in these 'this technology is clearly better,
everyone should
be forced to switch to it' discussions.

(and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, which
discourages
investments by landlords)

David Lang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire

Bob
Hi Bob,

On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
wrote:

Hi Sebastian,

It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help install
a home
network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy.

[SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP when
considering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather
McGywer this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a
servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in different
countries.

In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more
that 30'
apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communicate
with one
another. The smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years max.

[SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no
distance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed
rooms that need to have one). Also over here no AC requirement.

It's a good place to install remote radio heads, or even full blown
APs,
for both internet access points and for life support sensors.

[SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio
heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first iteration one
might even use PLC to bring data to the APs...

10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago. Early adopters aren't
likely
going to wire 10G over copper in their homes.

[SM] Over here active 2.5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap
enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2.5 has the advantage
of
operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will
push
anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most will
be
fine with < 30m).

100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for future
proof
comm cable throughout buildings.

[SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify
going
100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring and
100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why not?

Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me.

[SM] This might be related to your professional background though?
;)
Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead of the rest
of
us, as you know what is in the pipeline.

People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to
be
wireless.

[SM] Yes and no. People did not bother about wiring office desks or
even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets are a different kettle
of
fish, as are laptops, that might be operated wired on the desk but
wireless in the rest of the house. I also note that more and more
laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I detest that, an
rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not be planned
around that, leaving some more room for e.g. NVMe sockets or
simplify
cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users'
interest, but I digress).

We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one wireless
tech
(similar to Ethernet for wired) and a proposal is to use 802.11
since
that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets.

[SM] Sure 802.11 is likely to stay by virtue of being relatively
ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many use
cases (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and I
very much include your fiwi proposal here).

Bob

Hi Bob,

On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain

<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi David,

The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make

their

own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to

the

openwrt release process.

I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network

equipment

does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't have all the

skills

needed to manage an in home packet network that includes wifi.

[SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable. To run a

network connected to the internet securely requires to make a

number

of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired connectivity

versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of maintaining

security or cost in an increase in attack surface).

The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved

with

the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from

commercial

vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find

decent

AP placement.

For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an

unusual

skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not hard,

just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without

signaling

DIY-ness is more involved).

I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of

structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment

from

Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this

reasonably well

because I'm familiar with the chips inside.

The online tech support started with trepidation as he was

concerned

that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP

technicians.

He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o

one.

[SM] What "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from the

ISP?

The latter might have a script recommending ISP technicians more

for

commercial considerations than technical ones...

He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done. He

told

him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's

doing. My

techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him too."

I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the

equivalent,

but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians on

things

like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get a

quality

in home network. We're not lucky to have a flush toilet anymore.

This

stuff is too important to rely on luck.

[SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about

always

running network wiring parallel to electric cables so each power

socket could easily house an ethernet plug as well... (or one per

room

to keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? Sort

put this into the building codes/best current practice

documents... (I

understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over many

decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and

speaking of

decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a

future-oriented approach)?

Bob

On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs

with

WiFi

radios aren't based on openwrt.

From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on

OpenWRT

or one

of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from

scratch

I think many on this list use openwrt but

that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend is

less

sw in

a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs

may not

needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this is

highly

speculative.)

that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media

center,

etc) The

vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do

if it's

baked

into the chips

From my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of

commits,

and

of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile

date. So

the

size and quality of the software staff can be informative.

I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location &

date as

the

node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not.

Chips

designed

in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and

generate too

much

heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips as

example.

I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software.

Security holes

are far

more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may limit

the max

performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the

security,

not the

throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra info,

but

what makes

some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the age

of the

software)

David Lang

Bob

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:

There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a

label for

their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do

the

extra

work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a

regulatory

moat?)

And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with the

money

purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and

security

features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy

and

security bad alternatives?

As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to

ship

a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient

version, and

get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained

against

upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and

right

now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of

openwrt,

but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be

less

ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current versions

than

it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump'

upgrades.

it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your tires,

brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining

those

systems pays off in a big way over time

David Lang

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