From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38D6E3CB37 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.19] (c-24-130-176-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.130.176.79]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6085D1B26F; Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:12:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 6085D1B26F DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1697681559; bh=bvz4XKojPXWi1qg614L0k+xx1AFW8gX26xQBkRxwXVk=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=OgtJQ2HPPFUCiH0xz/UMT9IYYcWLX2/3jDbaMLAh3kR/a+JoTL++g6fi7eBiH/FlB Ra1ok3GubGdUOvphyPUAltLa+4E6acYcBkLYCMGU92Jp9YUHu7vEW3+EoF1mi/Jm/D gYutidK/p/RUCOIAPeCd6lowefdSoIxgWU8dLaFw= In-Reply-To: <15653on8-5sp7-o2sr-68sr-6oor9407p521@ynat.uz> References: <9f79b6f4b45c45c6d2fd2a43783f0157@rjmcmahon.com> <6a03ab3b-8e1c-4727-9fd9-07a38db4fb73@rjmcmahon.com> <2084BE53-6EAD-4480-B265-374C6A0F4874@gmx.de> <7D00C729-88AF-418B-991A-43C98E022CE6@gmx.de> <54f83edbf9fd8d21f297215ff757afb2@rjmcmahon.com> <7501q812-q6oo-29o5-924p-861s4n0q30p3@ynat.uz> <99c642b8-933e-4847-aa69-84454b5e0128@rjmcmahon.com> <15653on8-5sp7-o2sr-68sr-6oor9407p521@ynat.uz> X-Referenced-Uid: 0001172f567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----D518SYBIHFD23UYAREIKLPPN0AN7BM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:12:33 -0700 To: David Lang CC: Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Nnagain Message-ID: Subject: Re: [NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati? X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 02:12:40 -0000 ------D518SYBIHFD23UYAREIKLPPN0AN7BM Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Retrofit is trivial=2E It's all in the attic=2E A romex splice is about $53= =2E Verticals aren't required=2E Many states are mandating per each sale= =2E I had to do this in Boston historic district=2E No grandfather=2E My fi= re hurts the entire street =E2=81=A3Bob On Oct 18, 2023, 7:05 PM, at 7:0= 5 PM, David Lang wrote: >On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMa= hon wrote: > >> It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no vertica= ls=2E It's >$503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls on= ly=2E >> >> The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero=2E The ass= et value >add for whole home, life support capable, future proof,=C2=A0 low= power, >structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857=2E >> >> Staying ce= iling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls and >no patch and p= aint=2E >> >> All homes sold in the U=2ES=2E will have to do this per 2027 = fire codes=2E >The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture t= he $2,857=2E >Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for landlord= s=2E Rent >increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be kn= own >until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks=2E > >No, a= ll NEW homes built will need it, old homes do not need to be >retrofitted= =2E >This is normal for many things=2E > >It's cheap to do this sort of th= ing when a house is built, it's FAR >more >expensive to retrofit a house= =2E > >David Lang > >> No security vulnerabilities compared to those found = in Linux >computers=2E The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics=2E= No >general purpose CPU to exploit=2E >> >> >https://www=2Escmagazine=2Eco= m/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug >= > >> Bob >> >> On Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang >wrote: >>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>> >>>> On being = unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics >too=2E >>> Not >>>= > sure why HDMI class cables will be needed=2E WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 >>> M= IMO radios >>>> at 45Gb/s per front end module=2E Add some hw >>> compressi= on/decompression, I >>>> think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8= K=2E And the >content >>> will >>>> likely be coming from the cloud too, so= the need for a short HDMI >>> cable kinda >>>> goes away=2E >>> >>> until = you have a few people in an area all trying to do the same >thing, >>> not = they >>> EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and it just doesn't work= >>> well=2E >>> >>>> Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests= of cables to >>> connect >>>> things=2E My thoughts are no more cables oth= er than structured fiber >>> and >>>> structured AC which both are long liv= ed, multiple decades or more, >>> and hence >>>> are a one and done type of= spend=2E >>> >>> It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (p= ower, >video, >>> etc) than >>> it is to go completely wireless when you ar= e stationary=2E >>> >>>> I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm=2E I'v= e installed AFCI >>> circuit >>>> breakers for all my family, including the= in laws=2E These can >trigger >>> easily >>>> when other signals are multi= plexed=2E >>>> >>>> There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx = where 11 >>> people died >>>> including children=2E An AFCI breaker would l= ikely have prevented >that >>> fire=2E >>>> Working auto door closers would= have helped=2E Providing heat pumps >>> would have >>>> helped too so kids= didn't have to use electric resistive space >>> heaters which >>>> are ter= rible by my judgment=2E >>>> >>>> It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burn= ed down too=2E We've got so >>>> improvement to do on life support systems= =2E >>> >>> what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? (ROI timefram= e), >>> that's >>> usually overlooked in these 'this technology is clearly = better, >>> everyone should >>> be forced to switch to it' discussions=2E >= >> >>> (and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, which >>> = discourages >>> investments by landlords) >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>>> https= ://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire >>>> >>>> Bob >>>>> = Hi Bob, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sebastian, >>>>>> >>>>>> It wa= s the ISP tech support over the phone=2E Trying to help >install >>> a home= >>>>>> network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy=2E >>>>> >>>>> = [SM] Ah, okay=2E I would never even think about calling my ISP when >>>>> c= onsidering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather >>>>> McGywe= r this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a >>>>> servicedsdw),= I guess different service offerings in different >>>>> countries=2E >>>>> = >>>>> >>>>>> In many U=2ES=2E states, smoke detectors are required to be no= more >>> that 30' >>>>>> apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and = must communicate >>> with one >>>>>> another=2E The smoke sensor needs to b= e replaced every ten years >max=2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] Intersting! Over here = detectors are also mandatory (but no >>>>> distance or networking requireme= nts, it is special rooms like bed >>>>> rooms that need to have one)=2E Als= o over here no AC requirement=2E >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> It's a good place to in= stall remote radio heads, or even full >blown >>> APs, >>>>>> for both inte= rnet access points and for life support sensors=2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] I agre= e, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio >>>>> heads is not ro= cket science either, heck in a first iteration one >>>>> might even use PLC= to bring data to the APs=2E=2E=2E >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 10G NRE spends stoppe= d over a decade ago=2E Early adopters aren't >>> likely >>>>>> going to wir= e 10G over copper in their homes=2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] Over here active 2=2E= 5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap >>>>> enough for enthusiasts to swi= tch over to, and 2=2E5 has the >advantage >>> of >>>>> operating well even = over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will >>> push >>>>> anywhere close = to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most >will >>> be >>>>> fine wit= h < 30m)=2E >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn= 't an option for >future >>> proof >>>>>> comm cable throughout buildings= =2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would ju= stify >>> going >>>>> 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fi= ber wiring >and >>>>> 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 1= 0 Gbps why >not? >>>>> >>>>>> Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me=2E= >>>>> >>>>> [SM] This might be related to your professional background >t= hough? >>> ;) >>>>> Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead = of the rest >>> of >>>>> us, as you know what is in the pipeline=2E >>>>> >= >>>> >>>>>> People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters hav= e >to >>> be >>>>>> wireless=2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] Yes and no=2E People did = not bother about wiring office desks >or >>>>> even smart TVs, but smart ph= ones and tablets are a different >kettle >>> of >>>>> fish, as are laptops,= that might be operated wired on the desk but >>>>> wireless in the rest of= the house=2E I also note that more and more >>>>> laptops come without bui= lt in ethernet (personally I detest that, >an >>>>> rj45 jack is not that t= hick that a laptop body can not be planned >>>>> around that, leaving some = more room for e=2Eg=2E NVMe sockets or >>> simplify >>>>> cooling a bit, ul= tra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users' >>>>> interest, but I digress= )=2E >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> We need to standardized to the extent that we can o= n one wireless >>> tech >>>>>> (similar to Ethernet for wired) and a propos= al is to use 802=2E11 >>> since >>>>>> that's selling in volume, driven by = mobile hand sets=2E >>>>> >>>>> [SM] Sure 802=2E11 is likely to stay by vi= rtue of being relatively >>>>> ubiquitous and by being generally already go= od enough for many use >>>>> cases (with road-maps for tackling more demand= ing use-cases, and I >>>>> very much include your fiwi proposal here)=2E >>= >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> Hi Bob, >>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2023,= at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>>>> The vendors I know don't roll th= eir own os code either=2E The >make >>> their >>>>>>>> own release still mo= stly based from Linux and they aren't tied >to >>> the >>>>>>>> openwrt rel= ease process=2E >>>>>>>> I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction=2E Co= nsumer network >>> equipment >>>>>>>> does best when it's plug and play=2E = Consumers don't have all the >>> skills >>>>>>>> needed to manage an in hom= e packet network that includes wifi=2E >>>>>>> [SM] That is both true, and= (currently?) unachievable=2E To run a >>>>>>> network connected to the int= ernet securely requires to make a >>> number >>>>>>> of policy decisions tr= ading-off the required/desired >connectivity >>>>>>> versus the cost in sec= urity (either cost as effort of >maintaining >>>>>>> security or cost in an= increase in attack surface)=2E >>>>>>> The in-side the home situation, ha= s IMHO drastically improved >>> with >>>>>>> the availability of off-the-sh= elf mesh network gear from >>> commercial >>>>>>> vendors, with easy to fol= low instructions and/or apps to find >>> decent >>>>>>> AP placement=2E >>>= >>>> For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an >>> unusua= l >>>>>>> skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not >har= d, >>>>>>> just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without >>>= signaling >>>>>>> DIY-ness is more involved)=2E >>>>>>>> I recently fixed = a home network for my inlaws=2E It's a combo of >>>>>>>> structured wire an= d WiFi APs=2E I purchased the latest equipment >>> from >>>>>>>> Amazon vs = use the ISP provided equipment=2E I can do this >>> reasonably well >>>>>>>= > because I'm familiar with the chips inside=2E >>>>>>>> The online tech su= pport started with trepidation as he was >>> concerned >>>>>>>> that the ho= me owner, i=2Ee me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP >>> technicians=2E >>>>>>>= > He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o >>> one= =2E >>>>>>> [SM] What "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from th= e >>> ISP? >>>>>>> The latter might have a script recommending ISP technici= ans more >>> for >>>>>>> commercial considerations than technical ones=2E= =2E=2E >>>>>>>> He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done= =2E He >>> told >>>>>>>> him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know = what he's >>> doing=2E My >>>>>>>> techs aren't as good, and I really liked= working with him too=2E" >>>>>>>> I say this not to brag, as many on this = list could do the >>> equivalent, >>>>>>>> but to show that we really need = to train lots of technicians on >>> things >>>>>>>> like RF and structured = wiring=2E Nobody should be "lucky" to get >a >>> quality >>>>>>>> in home n= etwork=2E We're not lucky to have a flush toilet >anymore=2E >>> This >>>>= >>>> stuff is too important to rely on luck=2E >>>>>>> [SM] Mmmh, that got= me thinking, maybe we should think about >>> always >>>>>>> running networ= k wiring parallel to electric cables so each power >>>>>>> socket could eas= ily house an ethernet plug as well=2E=2E=2E (or one >per >>> room >>>>>>> t= o keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? >Sort >>> of >>= >>>>> put this into the building codes/best current practice >>> documents= =2E=2E=2E (I >>>>>>> understand starting now, will still only solve the iss= ue over >many >>>>>>> decades, but at least we would be making some inroads= ; and >>> speaking of >>>>>>> decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of= copper might be a >>> more >>>>>>> future-oriented approach)? >>>>>>>> Bob= >>>>>>>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang wrote: = >>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>>>> I don't know the nu= mbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs >>> with >>>>>>>> WiFi >>>>>>>= > radios aren't based on openwrt=2E >>>>>>>> From what I've seen, the major= ity of APs out there are based on >>> OpenWRT >>>>>>>> or one >>>>>>>> of t= he competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from >>> scratch >>>= >>>>> I think many on this list use openwrt but >>>>>>>> that may not be re= presentative of the actuals=2E Also, the trend >is >>> less >>>>>>>> sw in = >>>>>>>> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs >>>= may not >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> needed at all (if we get to remote radio head= s - though this is >>> highly >>>>>>>> speculative=2E) >>>>>>>> that is cou= ntered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media >>> center, >>>>>>>> etc= ) The >>>>>>>> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to= do >>> if it's >>>>>>>> baked >>>>>>>> into the chips >>>>>>>> From my exp= erience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of >>> commits, >>>>>>>> a= nd >>>>>>>> of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile >= >> date=2E So >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> size and quality of the software staff = can be informative=2E >>>>>>>> I'm more interested in mfg node process then= the mfg location & >>> date as >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> node process gives an= idea if the design is keeping up or not=2E >>> Chips >>>>>>>> designed >>>= >>>>> in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and >>> gener= ate too >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> heat=2E I think Intel provides this informat= ion on all its chips >as >>> an >>>>>>>> example=2E >>>>>>>> I'm far less c= oncerned about the chips than the software=2E >>> Security holes >>>>>>>> a= re far >>>>>>>> more likely in the software than the chips=2E The chips may= limit >>> the max >>>>>>>> performance of the devices, but the focus of th= is is on the >>> security, >>>>>>>> not the >>>>>>>> throughput or the powe= r efficiency (I don't mind that extra >info, >>> but >>>>>>>> what makes >>= >>>>>> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the >age >= >> of the >>>>>>>> software) >>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>> On W= ed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: >>>>>>>> There's also t= he concern about how do startups roll-out such a >>> label for >>>>>>>> the= ir tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to >do >>> the >>>= >>>>> extra >>>>>>>> work for the label vs=2E a big company (does this beco= me a >>> regulatory >>>>>>>> moat?) >>>>>>>> And let's say we have these la= bels=2E Will only consumers with >the >>> money >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> purcha= se the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and >>> security >>>>= >>>> features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy >>> an= d >>>>>>>> security bad alternatives? >>>>>>>> As far as security goes, I w= ould argue that the easy answer is >to >>> ship >>>>>>>> a current version = of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient >>> version, and >>>>>>>> get their= changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained >>> against >>>>>>>> up= stream)=2E It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and >>> right >= >>>>>>> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of >>> op= enwrt, >>>>>>>> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven= to >be >>> less >>>>>>>> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with = current >versions >>> than >>>>>>>> it is to stick with old versions and th= en do periodic 'big >jump' >>>>>>>> upgrades=2E >>>>>>>> it's like car main= tinance, it seems easier to ignore your >tires, >>>>>>>> brakes, and oil ch= anges, but the minimal cost of maintaining >>> those >>>>>>>> systems pays = off in a big way over time >>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing lis= t >>>>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>>>> https://lists=2Ebuffe= rbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>>>> Nnagai= n@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/list= info/nnagain >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>= >>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>>>= > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>> >> ------D518SYBIHFD23UYAREIKLPPN0AN7BM Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Retrofit is = trivial=2E It's all in the attic=2E A romex splice is about $53=2E Vertical= s aren't required=2E

Many states are manda= ting per each sale=2E I had to do this in Boston historic district=2E No gr= andfather=2E My fire hurts the entire street

Bob
On Oct 18, 2023, at 7:05 PM, David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
On Wed,=
 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:

 It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verti=
cals=2E It's $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls o=
nly=2E

 The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero=2E The =
asset value add for whole home, life support capable, future proof,  l=
ow power, structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857=2E

 Sta=
ying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls and no patch=
 and paint=2E

 All homes sold in the U=2ES=2E will have to do this p=
er 2027 fire codes=2E The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to ca=
pture the $2,857=2E Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for la=
ndlords=2E Rent increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't =
be known until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks=2E
<=
/blockquote>
No, all NEW homes built will need it, old homes do not need=
 to be retrofitted=2E 
This is normal for many things=2E

It's che=
ap to do this sort of thing when a house is built, it's FAR more 
expens=
ive to retrofit a house=2E

David Lang

 No security vulnerabilities compared to those fo=
und in Linux computers=2E The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics=
=2E No general purpose CPU to exploit=2E

 https://www=2Escmagazine=2Ecom/news/thousands-of-devices-expo=
sed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug

 Bob

 On Oct 18=
, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcm=
ahon wrote:

 On bei=
ng unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics too=2E
 Not
 sure why H=
DMI class cables will be needed=2E WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16
 =
MIMO radios
 at 45Gb/s =
per front end module=2E Add some hw
 compression/decompress=
ion, I
 think it can c=
arry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K=2E And the content
 w=
ill
 likely be coming f=
rom the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI
 cable kind=
a
 goes away=2E

 until you have a few people in an area all trying to do the s=
ame thing,
 not they
 EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and i=
t just doesn't work
 well=2E

 Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests of cabl=
es to
 connect
 things=2E My thoughts are no more cables other than structured f=
iber
 and
 structured AC which both are long lived, multiple decades or more,
<=
/blockquote> and hence
=
 are a one and done type of spend=2E

 It's much more pr=
actical to go to a single USB-C cable (power, video,
 etc) than
 it i=
s to go completely wireless when you are stationary=2E

 I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and=
 comm=2E I've installed AFCI
 circuit
 breakers for all my family, including the =
in laws=2E These can trigger
 easily
 when other signals are multiplexed=2E
<=
br> There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11
 people died
 =
including children=2E An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented that
<=
/blockquote> fire=2E
 W=
orking auto door closers would have helped=2E Providing heat pumps
 would have
 he=
lped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space
 heaters which
 are t=
errible by my judgment=2E

 It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burn=
ed down too=2E We've got so
 improvement to do on life support systems=
=2E

 what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? =
(ROI timeframe),
 that's
 usually overlooked in these 'this technolog=
y is clearly better,
 everyone should
 be forced to switch to it' dis=
cussions=2E

 (and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NY=
C, which
 discourages
 investments by landlords)

 David Lang
 https://en=2Ewikipedia=
=2Eorg/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire

 Bob
 Hi Bob,


 On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <rjmcmah=
on@rjmcmahon=2Ecom>
 wrote:
 Hi Sebastian,

 It was the ISP tech support over the phone=2E Tryi=
ng to help install
 a home
 netwo=
rk over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy=2E

  [SM]=
 Ah, okay=2E I would never even think about calling my ISP when
 conside=
ring changes to my home network (for one, I would rather
 McGywer this, =
and also my ISP does not really offer that as a
 servicedsdw), I guess d=
ifferent service offerings in different
 countries=2E


 In many U=2ES=2E states, smoke d=
etectors are required to be no more
 that 30'
 apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communi=
cate
 with one
 another=2E The=
 smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years max=2E
<=
br>  [SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no
 di=
stance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed
 rooms t=
hat need to have one)=2E Also over here no AC requirement=2E


 It's a good place to install=
 remote radio heads, or even full blown
 APs,
 for both internet access points and for life support sensors=
=2E

  [SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering=
 such APs/radio
 heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first ite=
ration one
 might even use PLC to bring data to the APs=2E=2E=2E

=

 10G NRE spends stoppe=
d over a decade ago=2E Early adopters aren't
<=
/blockquote> likely
 going to wire 10G over copper in their homes=2E

  [SM] Over here active 2=2E5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming=
 cheap
 enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2=2E5 has the adva=
ntage
 of
 operating=
 well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will
 push
 anywhere close to the typical 10=
0m copper ethernet limit, most will
 be
 fine with < 30m)=2E


 100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn'=
t an option for future
 proof
=

 co=
mm cable throughout buildings=2E

  [SM] Indeed, but I a=
m not 100% sure what use-case would justify
 g=
oing
 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one swi=
tches to fiber wiring and
 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive tha=
n 1 or 10 Gbps why not?

 Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me=2E

  [=
SM] This might be related to your professional background though?
 ;)
 Just kidding, I think yo=
u are simply a few years ahead of the rest
 of=

 us, as you know what is in the pipeline=2E
<=
br>
 People don't want =
to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to
 be
 wireless=2E

  [SM] Yes and no=2E =
People did not bother about wiring office desks or
 even smart TVs, but =
smart phones and tablets are a different kettle
 of
 fish, as are laptops, that might be oper=
ated wired on the desk but
 wireless in the rest of the house=2E I also =
note that more and more
 laptops come without built in ethernet (persona=
lly I detest that, an
 rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body ca=
n not be planned
 around that, leaving some more room for e=2Eg=2E NVMe =
sockets or
 simplify
 cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users'
 intere=
st, but I digress)=2E


 We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one wireless
 tech
 (similar to Ethernet for wi=
red) and a proposal is to use 802=2E11
 since
 that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets=2E

  [SM] Sure 802=2E11 is likely to stay by virtue of being re=
latively
 ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many=
 use
 cases (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and I=

 very much include your fiwi proposal here)=2E




 Bob

       Hi Bob,
       

       

        On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McM=
ahon via Nnagain
        

         <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene=
t> wrote:
        

         Hi David,
        

         The vend=
ors I know don't roll their own os code either=2E The make
        

   =
    
 their=


       

        own release still mostly based from Linu=
x and they aren't tied to
        

       
 the

       

        =
openwrt release process=2E
        

         I think GUIs on CPEs are t=
he wrong direction=2E Consumer network
        

       
 equipment

       

        does best when it's plug and play=2E Consumers don't hav=
e all the
        

       
 skills

=
       

        needed to man=
age an in home packet network that includes wifi=2E
        

        [SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable=2E To run =
a
       

        network connected to the internet securely requires t=
o make a
       
 nu=
mber

       of policy decis=
ions trading-off the required/desired connectivity
       

        vers=
us the cost in security (either cost as effort of maintaining
       

 =
       security or cost in an increase in attack surface)=2E
       

  =
      The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved
       =

 with

       the availability of off-the-shelf =
mesh network gear from
       
 commercial
=


     =
  vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find
       
=

 decent

       AP placement=2E
       

        =
For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an
       
 unusual

       skill set (even though doing structure=
d wiring itself is not hard,
       

        just doing it in a way tha=
t blends into an apartment without
       
 signaling

       DIY-ness is more involved)=2E
       

       
        I recently fixed a home network=
 for my inlaws=2E It's a combo of
        

         structured wire and=
 WiFi APs=2E I purchased the latest equipment
        

       
 from

       

        Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment=2E I can do t=
his
        

       
 reasonably well

       

        becau=
se I'm familiar with the chips inside=2E
        

         The online t=
ech support started with trepidation as he was
        

       
 concerned

       

        that the home owner, i=2Ee me, wasn't as skilled=
 as the ISP
        

       
 technicians=2E

       

        He =
suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o
        

 =
      
 one=
=2E

       [SM] What "onli=
ne tech support"? From the AP vendor or from the
       
 ISP?

       The latter might have a script recommending ISP techn=
icians more
       
=
 for

       commercial cons=
iderations than technical ones=2E=2E=2E
       

       

        He asked to speak to my father in la=
w when we were all done=2E He
        

       
 told

       

   =
     him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's
        
       
=
 doing=2E My

       
        techs aren't as good, and I =
really liked working with him too=2E"
        

         I say this not =
to brag, as many on this list could do the
        

       
 equivalent,

       

        but to show that we really need to train lots of t=
echnicians on
        

       
 things

       

        like =
RF and structured wiring=2E Nobody should be "lucky" to get a
        

=
       
 qu=
ality

       
        in home network=2E We're not l=
ucky to have a flush toilet anymore=2E
        

       
 This

       

        stuff is too important to rely on luck=2E
        

    =
   
 [SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think abo=
ut
       
 always
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
       running network wiring=
 parallel to electric cables so each power
       

        socket could=
 easily house an ethernet plug as well=2E=2E=2E (or one per
       
 room

       to keep the cost lower and avoid overly m=
uch "dark" copper)? Sort
       
=

 of

       put =
this into the building codes/best current practice
       
=

 documents=2E=2E=2E (I

       understand starting now, will stil=
l only solve the issue over many
       

        decades, but at least =
we would be making some inroads; and
       
<=
/blockquote>
 speaking of

       decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might=
 be a
       
 more<=
br>
=


       future-oriented appro=
ach)?
       

       

   =
     Bob
        

         On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <=
david@lang=2Ehm> wrote:
        

         On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcm=
ahon wrote:
        

         I don't know the numbers but a guess is t=
hat a majority of SoCs
        

       
 with

       

        Wi=
Fi
        

         radios aren't based on openwrt=2E
        

   =
      From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on
     =
   

       
 OpenWRT

       
        or one
        

       =
  of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from
        <=
br>
       
 scratch

       
        I think many on this list use =
openwrt but
        

         that may not be representative of the act=
uals=2E Also, the trend is
        

       
 less

       

      =
  sw in
        

         a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, =
linux at the CPEs
        

       
 may not

       

        be
 =
       

         needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - thoug=
h this is
        

       
 highly

=
       

        speculative=
=2E)
        

         that is countered by the trend to do more (fanci=
er GUI, media
        

       
 center,

       

        etc) =
The
        

         vendors all want to differentiate themselves, tha=
t's hard to do
        

       
<=
/blockquote>
 if it's

       

        baked=

        

         into the chips
        

         From my experie=
nce, sw is defined by the number & frequency of
        

       
 commits,
=


       

        and
        

         of timeliness to i=
ssues more than a version number or compile
        

       
 date=2E So

       

        the
        

         size and quality of the =
software staff can be informative=2E
        

         I'm more interes=
ted in mfg node process then the mfg location &
        

       
 date as
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">

       

        the
        

         node process gives =
an idea if the design is keeping up or not=2E
        

       
 Chips

       

        designed
        

         in 2012 are woefully b=
ehind and consume too much energy and
        

       
 generate too

       

        much
        

         heat=2E I think Intel provi=
des this information on all its chips as
        

       
<=
/blockquote>
 an

       

        example=2E
        

         I'm far less concerned abo=
ut the chips than the software=2E
        

       
 Security holes

       

        are far
        

         more likely in the softwar=
e than the chips=2E The chips may limit
        

       
 the max

       

        performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on =
the
        

       
 security,

   =
    

        not the
        =


         throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra i=
nfo,
        

       
 but

       <=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
        what makes
        
         some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the a=
ge
        

       
=

 of the

       =


        software)
        
         David Lang
        

         Bob
        

         On W=
ed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:
        

         T=
here's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a
        

=
       
 la=
bel for

       
        their tech in the early iterat=
ion phase? How do they afford to do
        

       
 the

       

        extra
        

         work for the label vs=2E a big compan=
y (does this become a
        

       
 regulatory

       

     =
   moat?)
        

         And let's say we have these labels=2E Will =
only consumers with the
        

       
 money

       

        =
to
        

         purchase the more expensive equipment that has mor=
e privacy and
        

       
 security

       

        featu=
res buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy
        

   =
    
 and
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
       

        security bad alternatives?
        

  =
       As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to
  =
      

       
 ship

       
        a current version of openwr=
t instead of a forked, ancient
        

       
 version, and

       

        get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintaine=
d
        

       
<=
/blockquote> against

       =


        upstream)=2E It's a =
different paradigm than they are used to, and
        

       
 right

       

        now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient vers=
ions of
        

       
 openwrt,

=
       

        but in all th=
e companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be
        

       
 less

       

        ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up wit=
h current versions
        

       
 than

       

        it is=
 to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump'
        

  =
       upgrades=2E
        

         it's like car maintinance, it seem=
s easier to ignore your tires,
        

         brakes, and oil change=
s, but the minimal cost of maintaining
        

       
 those

       

        systems pays off in a big way over time
        

     =
    David Lang
        

         Nnagain mailing list
        

    =
     Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
        
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/li=
stinfo/nnagain
        

         Nnagain mailing list
        

=
         Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
        
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene=
t/listinfo/nnagain
        

        

        

         Nnag=
ain mailing list
        

         Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
  =
      
ht=
tps://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain

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