From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BADC73B29D; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [100.115.246.216] (202.sub-174-249-144.myvzw.com [174.249.144.202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7E3C1B25E; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:48:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com B7E3C1B25E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1702752516; bh=zjzIp7plI/s9Sa10fKKG0kEt1LggbXAxLeMUKhqoGak=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=mH5EGWY424AUCjjANLJRYQtkLhWe4awCXlRvi/WsFqoLD+VeXaisUKJEiUEejwPLk Qd033989Y8cqVRulIaF5d+HyaAiDffNmbH/2lCmFAxGdTScUTq6ilae4TUQnnBVmpD lIYm0Fup54JYiOIxzizocXp5TQHea6201pgQtmfM= In-Reply-To: <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.com> References: <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 00011db6567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----087FAAGK5AMR1KC2RTBZGQKXCUVHOP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:48:29 -0800 To: Ronan Pigott via Nnagain CC: David Lang , Dave Taht via Starlink Message-ID: Subject: Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:48:37 -0000 ------087FAAGK5AMR1KC2RTBZGQKXCUVHOP Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Division was they have= to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to that=2E And I w= as amazed=2E I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid who are represe= nting these tough types? They're all women=2E People ask me sometimes, whe= n =E2=80=94 when do you think it will it be enough? When will there be enou= gh women on the court? And my answer is when there are nine=2E RBG Bob On= Dec 16, 2023, 9:30 AM, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: >The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to= fix their computer >science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio= =2E She was asked, >"What's the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect t= o population so >50/50=2E" The others said, "Be realistic=2E" > >She was a= nd she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every technology >group=2ETho= ugh we have more improvements to be done=2E > >https://hechingerreport=2Eor= g/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women= -to-get-in/ > >There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the= denial >phase=2E This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk dis= played >here by its constituents, are very much white male things=2E Not n= oticing > >this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the g= roup=2E >My >judgment=2E > >Bob >> to be very clear, I am in no way saying= that anyone's (let alone >> saying women's) views are not desired=2E I thi= nk a diversity of views >if >> extremely valuable=2E >> >> I just get my b= ack up when people say things like 'there need to more >> X in charge' (for= any value of X that refers to a characteristic that >> someone is born wit= h) >> >> David Lang >> >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >> >>> T= his is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume >>> that = the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily >>> male al= so=2E >>> >>> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the inte= rnet >>> should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how= >>> that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I hesitate >= >> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and >>> me= ssaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone more >>> import= ant than fiber=2E Security (tracking and/or protecting kids), >>> also=2E I= t is something I would rather research than draw premature >>> conclusions = from=2E >>> >>> >https://www=2Egoogle=2Ecom/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+wome= n+use+the+internet+differently >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80= =AFPM David Lang via Starlink >>> wrot= e: >>>> >>>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >>>= > >>>> I've used it personally=2E >>>> >>>> Even if women use telehealth = more than men, that doesn't say that >>>> women have any >>>> particular a= dvantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth > >>>> possible=2E = >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>= >>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services=2E= >>>>> They are >>>>> using broadband to care for our population=2E They a= lso run most of >>>>> the >>>>> addiction services across our country, wha= tever the addiction may >>>>> be=2E So >>>>> gender actually matters=2E As= k them as providers=2E Telehealth doesn't > >>>>> work over >>>>> LEO (nor = does it matter much for men on boats=2E) Same for distance >>>>> learning= =2E >>>>> >>>>> >https://www=2Ehealthcaredive=2Ecom/news/women-more-likely= -telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >>>>> >>>>> As Wa= shington considers which virtual care flexibilities should >>>>> remain in= >>>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back >>>>> te= lehealth access >>>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect wome= n, even as a >>>>> growing >>>>> share of startups emerge to address women= =E2=80=99s unique health needs=2E >>>>> >>>>> While women are more likely = than men to visit doctors and consume >>>>> healthcare >>>>> services in g= eneral, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to > >>>>> women=2E >>>>= > >>>>> Bob >>>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no = Internet >>>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals h= ave to > >>>>>> do >>>>>> with shipping bits around? >>>>>> >>>>>> Starlin= k (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way >to >>>>>> get >>= >>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every >>>>= >> house=2E >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification,= if that problem >>>>>> were >>>>>> to be faced today, would the right ans= wer be massive public >>>>>> agencies >>>>>> to build and run miles of wir= e from massive central power plants? > >>>>>> or >>>>>> would the right ans= wer be solar + batteries in individual houses >>>>>> for >>>>>> the most r= ural folks, with small modular reactors to power the >>>>>> larger >>>>>> = population areas? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just because there was only one way to ach= ieve a goal in the past >>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing= to do today=2E >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 202= 3, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We're trying t= o modernize America=2E LBJ helped do it for >>>>>>> electricity >>>>>>> de= cades ago=2E It's our turn to step up to the plate=2E Tele-health >>>>>>> = and >>>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so=2E There is so much to = >>>>>>> follow=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A reminder what many women went through = before LBJ showed up=2E >I'm >>>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is e= ven close to capable=2E We >>>>>>> probably >>>>>>> need a woman to lead u= s, or at least motivate us to do our best >>>>>>> work for >>>>>>> our cou= ntry and to be an example to the world=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A Hill Country f= arm wife had to do her chores even if she was >ill >>>>>>> =E2=80=93 no >>= >>>>> matter how ill=2E Because Hill Country women were too poor to >afford= >>>>>>> proper >>>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in= childbirth=2E >>>>>>> During the >>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government se= nt physicians to examine a >>>>>>> sampling of >>>>>>> Hill Country women= =2E The doctors found that, out of 275 women, >158 >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> per= ineal tears=2E Many of them, the team of gynecologists >reported, >>>>>>> = were >>>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult= to see >how >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> stand on their feet=2E=E2=80=9D But they= were standing on their feet, and >>>>>>> doing all >>>>>>> the chores tha= t Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling the > >>>>>>> water,= >>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the >>>= >>>> shearing, >>>>>>> the plowing and the picking=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Beca= use there was no electricity=2E >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 De= c 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Franti= sek, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek = Borsik via Nnagain >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>= >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advanta= ges of >>>>>>>>>> satcom >>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit= /s in 10 years time, to > >>>>>>>>>> overcome >>>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber= ' problem=2E >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, not really=2E Starlink was about to= address the issue of >>>>>>>>>> digital >>>>>>>>>> divide - >>>>>>>>> >>= >>>>>>> I beg to differ=2E Starlink is a commercial enterprise with >the = >>>>>>>>> goal to >>>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet ac= cess essentially >>>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an at= tempt at >>>>>>>>> specifically >>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (wer= e often an important factor is > >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> necessarily locati= on but financial means)=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " comme= rcial enterprise with the goal to >>>>>>>> make a >>>>>>>> profit by offer= ing (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> o= f that=2E Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to >>>>>>>> se= rvice >>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure >>>>>>= >> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, wher= e there is >>>>>>>>>> literally >>>>>>>>>> none today=2E Fiber will NEVER = get there=2E And it will get >there, >>>>>>>>>> it will >>>>>>>>>> be like= 10 years down the road=2E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong app= roach to take=2E The goal needs to be >a >>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access ne= twork (with the exception of extreme >>>>>>>>> locations, >>>>>>>>> no nee= d to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt=2E > >>>>>>>>> Whit= ney)=2E >>>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is >>>>= >>>>> infrastructure that >>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades o= nce rolled-out=2E However > >>>>>>>>> given >>>>>>>>> that time frame one s= hould consider work-arounds for the >interim >>>>>>>>> period=2E >>>>>>>>>= I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that >>>>>>>>> fr= om a >>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually = >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not m= et/promised by >>>>>>>>> starlink was >>>>>>>>> mostly redacted=2E >>>>>>>= > >>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run >betwe= en >>>>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we've seen the failure = of commercial fiber monopolies in cities > >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> housing d= ensity of several houses per acre (and even where >there >>>>>>>> are >>>>= >>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable >>>>>>= >> enough=2E >>>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres pe= r house' >the >>>>>>>> cost >>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high=2E I d= on't think this is the >>>>>>>> majority of >>>>>>>> the population of the= US any longer (but I don't know for >sure), >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> it's ve= ry clearly the majority of the area of the US=2E And once >>>>>>>> you get= >>>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town >o= r >>>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is run= ning fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an >>>>>>>> 'extreme= location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI >>>>>>>> https://en=2Ew= ikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>= than an hours drive from the state capitol=2E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Lan= g >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Nnagain= mailing list >>>>>>>> Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>>>> https://l= ists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>>> >>>>> __________________= _____________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@list= s=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starl= ink >>> >>> >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >N= nagain mailing list >Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebuf= ferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain ------087FAAGK5AMR1KC2RTBZGQKXCUVHOP Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= div dir=3D"auto">And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Divisi= on was they have to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to= that=2E And I was amazed=2E I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid= who are representing these tough types? They're all women=2E

=
People ask me sometimes, when =E2=80=94 when do you thin= k it will it be enough? When will there be enough women on the court? And m= y answer is when there are nine=2E RBG

Bob<= /div>
On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon vi= a Nnagain <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
The presi=
dent who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer 
science prob=
lem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio=2E She was asked, 
"What's the =
goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population so 
50/50=2E" The=
 others said, "Be realistic=2E"

She was and she got it to 50/50 wher=
e it should be in every technology 
group=2EThough we have more improvem=
ents to be done=2E

 to be very c=
lear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone
 saying women's) vi=
ews are not desired=2E I think a diversity of views if
 extremely valuab=
le=2E
 
 I just get my back up when people say things like 'there nee=
d to more
 X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteris=
tic that
 someone is born with)
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fri, 15 =
Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
 
 This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assu=
me
 that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily=

 male also=2E
 
 It is a very good set of questions to ask about =
how the internet
 should be structured to best meet the needs of both se=
xes, and how
 that has changed over time, and may change in the future! =
I hesitate
 to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivit=
y and
 messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone mor=
e
 important than fiber=2E Security (tracking and/or protecting kids), also=2E It is something I would rather research than draw premature
 =
conclusions from=2E
 
 https://www=2Egoogle=
=2Ecom/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differently
=
 
 On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink
 &=
lt;starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
 
 why do you think telehealth won't work over=
 LEO services?
 
 I've used it personally=2E
 
 Even if women u=
se telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that 
 women have any
 =
particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth 
 po=
ssible=2E
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote=
:
 
 Women are the =
primary users and providers of telehealth services=2E 
 They are
 usi=
ng broadband to care for our population=2E They also run most of 
 the addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may 
 b=
e=2E So
 gender actually matters=2E Ask them as providers=2E Telehealth =
doesn't 
 work over
 LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats=2E=
) Same for distance 
 learning=2E
 
 https://www=2Ehealthcaredive=2Ecom/news/women-more-lik=
ely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
 
 As=
 Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should 
 remain i=
n
 place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back 
 teleh=
ealth access
 and affordability will disproportionately affect women, ev=
en as a 
 growing
 share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99=
s unique health needs=2E
 
 While women are more likely than men to v=
isit doctors and consume 
 healthcare
 services in general, telehealt=
h seems to be uniquely attractive to 
 women=2E
 
 Bob
 who exactly do you think is calli=
ng for there to be no Internet
 access? and what in the world does the s=
ex of individuals have to 
 do
 with shipping bits around?
 
 S=
tarlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to 
 get<=
br> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every
 h=
ouse=2E
 
 As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that p=
roblem 
 were
 to be faced today, would the right answer be massive p=
ublic 
 agencies
 to build and run miles of wire from massive central=
 power plants? 
 or
 would the right answer be solar + batteries in i=
ndividual houses 
 for
 the most rural folks, with small modular reac=
tors to power the 
 larger
 population areas?
 
 Just because t=
here was only one way to achieve a goal in the past
 doesn't mean that a=
pproach is the best thing to do today=2E
 
 David Lang
 
 On Fr=
i, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
 
 Hi All,
 
 We're trying to modernize America=2E LBJ help=
ed do it for 
 electricity
 decades ago=2E It's our turn to step up t=
o the plate=2E Tele-health 
 and
 distance learning requires us to do=
 so=2E There is so much to 
 follow=2E
 
 A reminder what many wom=
en went through before LBJ showed up=2E I'm
 skeptical a patriarchy unde=
r Musk is even close to capable=2E We 
 probably
 need a woman to lea=
d us, or at least motivate us to do our best 
 work for
 our country =
and to be an example to the world=2E
 
 A Hill Country farm wife had =
to do her chores even if she was ill 
 =E2=80=93 no
 matter how ill=
=2E Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford 
 proper
 medi=
cal care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth=2E 
 During th=
e
 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a 
 sampl=
ing of
 Hill Country women=2E The doctors found that, out of 275 women, =
158 
 had
 perineal tears=2E Many of them, the team of gynecologists =
reported, 
 were
 third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it i=
s difficult to see how 
 they
 stand on their feet=2E=E2=80=9D But th=
ey were standing on their feet, and 
 doing all
 the chores that Hill=
 Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling the 
 water,
 haulin=
g the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the 
 shearing,
 =
the plowing and the picking=2E
 
 Because there was no electricity=2E=

 
 Bob
 On Fri, 15 =
Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
 
 Hi Frantisek,
 
 
 On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik v=
ia Nnagain
 <nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
 
 Th=
us, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of 
 satcom
 =
such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to 
 overcome=

 the 'tangled fiber' problem=2E
 
 No, not really=2E Starlink was=
 about to address the issue of 
 digital
 divide -
 <=
br>   I beg to differ=2E Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the 
 =
goal to
 make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially<=
br> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at 
 specifica=
lly
 reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is 
=
 not
 necessarily location but financial means)=2E
 
=
 Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to 
 make a=

 profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company 
 bec=
ause
 of that=2E Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to  service
 people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure
 
 
 delivering internet to those 640k locations, where=
 there is 
 literally
 none today=2E Fiber will NEVER get there=2E An=
d it will get there, 
 it will
 be like 10 years down the road=2E
=

 
   This is IHO the wrong approach to take=2E The goal nee=
ds to be a
 universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme=
 
 locations,
 no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelte=
r on Mt=2E 
 Whitney)=2E
 And f that takes a decade or two, so be it,=
 this is 
 infrastructure that
 will keep on helping for many decades=
 once rolled-out=2E However 
 given
 that time frame one should consi=
der work-arounds for the interim 
 period=2E
 I would have naively th=
ought starlink would qualify for that 
 from a
 technical perspective=
, but then the FCC documents actually 
 discussion
 requirements and =
how they were or were not met/promised by 
 starlink was
 mostly reda=
cted=2E
 
 what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how=
 long a run between
 houses is 'too far'?
 
 we've seen the failur=
e of commercial fiber monopolies in cities 
 with
 housing density of=
 several houses per acre (and even where there 
 are
 apartment compl=
exes there as well) because it's not profitable 
 enough=2E
 When you=
 get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the 
 cost
 of =
running FTTH gets very high=2E I don't think this is the 
 majority of the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), 
 bu=
t
 it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US=2E And once 
=
 you get
 out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town=
 or
 village becomes a major undertaking=2E
 
 Is running fiber 30=
 miles to support a village of 700 people an
 'extreme location'? let me=
 introduce you to Vermontville MI
 https://en=2Ewikipedia=2Eorg/wiki/Vermontvi=
lle,_Michigan which is 
 less
 than an hours drive from the state=
 capitol=2E
 
 David Lang

 Nnagain mailing list
 Nnagai=
n@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain<=
br>
 

 Starli=
nk mailing list
 Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
 https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=
=2Enet/listinfo/starlink

Nnagain mailing list
Nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat= =2Enet
ht= tps://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/nnagain
=
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