From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A433CB37 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 16D8F1B203; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 16D8F1B203 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1698266652; bh=VoaZOCaSkluSg/kmg+seIG92r6QOsr81rcJ7XXktUvI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=WMvOWPBl80vZMmSceoGPNl+S1qYEDfvCyMBbsvXbf2y2FvwIRWHb4qNmW0un9317X mC8IZunSbHAOxekCF3gIGbDvFNkXoQxieM1+WNrbgSzQduM3hFQiv5peZDwJMM/1FT aBf+tgVX/YedmvjIzR97hFHzaxW0OAtZnmu29j5c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:44:12 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_a?= =?UTF-8?Q?spects_heard_this_time!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [NNagain] RFC: Public Communications on Tech Infrastructure X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:44:13 -0000 I was an intramural ref in college. The best compliment I would get was, "You ref'd our championship game? I didn't notice." It indicates that others could play their game and the ref called a good game. Being noticed as a ref likely means you're getting in the way of the game. I think much of life is this way. Being noticed is much less important than enabling others to fulfill their potential & talents without them having to deal with basics like reliable communications and infrastructure. That just seems fundamental to me and being part of helping with that is enough. Just my $0.02, Bob > Bravo Nathan and very well said - thank you for sharing this, > especially: > >>> the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are totally > unacknowledged and misunderstood > > I concur that technical topics don't get a lot of adequate, nuanced > coverage. Meanwhile our (second?) Gilded Age seems to be missing three > important things as well - which would be great if more people took > the time to listen/seek to understand re: network engineering and IT > operations. > > _1. Listen with Curiosity, Seek to Understand_ > > _2. Avoid Reducing Issues into Binary Positions _ > > _3. Walk a Mile In the Other Person's Shoes_ > > ... here's to helping bridge the gaps! > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/importance-communication-especially-on-going-david-bray-phd > > -d. > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Nathan Simington via Nnagain > wrote: > >> Branching from Dave's thread because I don't want to get into the >> politics, but I would like to very strongly endorse Dave's remarks >> about how the incredible accomplishments of network engineers are >> totally unacknowledged and misunderstood (e.g., note the public >> policy emphasis on line speed over all else.) As such, I'd like to >> solicit the members of this list to suggest some of the greatest >> accomplishments in network engineering that you've never seen >> properly acknowledged or appreciated. I'd like to promote and >> discuss them in speeches and papers to help get more sunlight on >> them. >> >> 0. Let's get network engineering some applause, please! >> Both recent and historical accomplishments are welcome. I just want >> to help get more people thinking about what a difference network >> engineering has made to everyone's lives! All technologies, >> personalities and accomplishments welcome! >> >> Beyond this specific thing, in terms of public discourse, I'd love >> to get more opinions about how to communicate to the public about >> the tech underpinnings of the world we live in now, and I'd love >> comments on how to discuss and promote any of these topics: >> >> 1. Infrastructure advances >> It would generally do a lot of good if the public were to think of >> "tech" less as purely the consumer-facing side and more in terms of >> fundamental architecture and infrastructure. For example, there's >> really no point talking about "AI" in the public-facing aspect of >> end-user LLM experiences without first looking at how the cost of >> compute and transit has gone through the floor compared to 15 years >> ago or so. I can't even disentangle all the drivers, but they must >> include at least: >> >> * New uses for GPUs driving advances and slashing prices in GPU >> tech >> >> * Vast advances in back-end cloud (to pick one company, >> Sawzall/Lingo/GFS/Colossus plus associated datacenters is almost >> invisible to the public, and I have no idea what's powering Chinese >> AI back-ends) >> * Nuts-and-bolts development in ML/data science that are eroding >> the fuzzy boundary between ML done as a planned, discrete query by >> an expert over a small, curated dataset and ML as a quasi-autonomous >> system not requiring expert queries, given authority over physical >> devices, doing its own ingestion, etc -- "a sufficiently large >> difference in quantity is itself a difference in quality" >> >> This stuff is particularly worth asking about because we are now at >> least 30 years into what I think of as "pervasive networked personal >> computing," now in wireless and appified form, and I think the >> public experiences this as just advances that "happen by themselves" >> in the ordinary course without seeing the jags in the step functions >> underwriting the apparent smooth curve of progress. >> >> 2. Security in real-world systems >> Getting hacked used to mean losing data, having devices bricked, >> maybe getting co-opted into a botnet, etc. Now it's a lot scarier, >> because we are increasingly surrounded by always-on, >> always-connected devices whose security infrastructure is a black >> box and which may be trusted with controlling physical equipment. >> It's bad enough if your household appliances are phoning home >> (where?) with your credit card number. It's a whole new level of >> scary if there are possible APTs in the power grid and whoever >> manufactured the IOT modem in a transformer is about 8 degrees of >> separation from the grid operators. Even if there's no malice >> intended, modern grid balancing is a new level of challenging >> because you may have multiple sources of generation with immense >> moment-by-moment fluctuations in inbound generation, etc., and >> that's just one category, leaving groceries, ports, financial >> markets, building security, whatever replaces positive train control >> (PTC) down the road, vehicular autonomy, industrial operations, etc. >> to one side... >> >> Panic reactions are one thing, but it would be more productive for >> the public to think about what their expectations are for how to >> react to these new capabilities and challenges and then demand that >> the policy sector cashes this out into new standards by consulting >> with technologists. I would therefore love advice on what you think >> the public needs to know. Maybe some kind of public forum that could >> get press or a white paper that could get written up in an op-ed? >> >> On that note, in addition to (or instead of) commenting on this >> posting, please consider commenting on the US Cyber Trust Mark >> proceeding now open at the FCC (comments close November 10th, >> commenting link here: >> https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/docket-detail/23-239). If you'd like >> to talk about this off-list, please drop me a line at NS@fcc.gov. >> I'll let you know in advance if anything you want to say requires >> you to file an "ex parte" statement so that you don't have to worry >> about going on the record unintentionally. This is a fantastic >> opportunity for the network engineering and computer security >> communities to air their concerns in a federal forum in a way that >> may bind the federal government going forward. >> >> 3. The future isn't evenly distributed >> Talking to a friend who does industrial devops reminded me of this >> fantastic postmortem on healthcare.gov [1]'s rollout: >> https://lobste.rs/s/igt4ez/10_year_anniversary_healthcare_gov. >> Obviously I don't need to tell the career professionals this, but >> tech advances don't necessarily propagate, and if they do, it may be >> at radically different rates between different countries, companies, >> sectors... (If I needed a reminder of this, I recently had to upload >> DICOM files to a hospital using a terrible Java applet that was >> obviously written so long ago that it only wanted to upload from >> CDs, i.e., at a time when you wouldn't have spent hard disk space on >> DICOMs. I eventually managed to "persuade" it that a flash drive was >> a CD.) >> >> This ties into points 1 and especially 2, because if we want the >> full social benefits of all the advances modern engineering has >> accomplished, we need to get people in "nontraditional" sectors >> thinking about the benefits of the communications and controls >> capabilities that are now on the table. Everyone should be asking >> why we aren't doing ML to reduce the cost and energy consumption for >> making breakfast cereal, totally pedestrian stuff like that; if the >> answer is juice isn't worth the squeeze, that fine, but that's going >> to run on a delay because, as the healthcare.gov [1] example shows, >> high-value new practices may be invisible to a sector that would >> definitely benefit from them. >> >> Sorry for the very lengthy post, and as they say on the artist >> formerly known as Twitter, "my DMs are open." And thanks for >> everything you all do! >> >> All the best-- >> Nathan >> >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 3:22 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain >> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:21 AM the keyboard of geoff >>> goodfellow via >>> Nnagain wrote: >>>> >>>> >>> >> ➔➔https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844384379163 >>> >>> Leaving aside the rhetoric, I believe the majority of these claims >>> on >>> this part of his post: >>> >>> https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716884139226329512 >>> >>> to be true. Any one question this? >>> >>> I do wish that he showed upload speeds, and latency under load, >>> and, >>> acknowledged some mistakes, at least, and did not claim perfect >>> success. Also individual states had stepped up to institute their >>> own >>> rules, and I would love to see a comparison of those stats vs >>> those >>> that didn´t. >>> >>> The COVID thing I am most fiercely proud of, as an engineer, is we >>> took an internet only capable of postage stamp 5 frame per sec[1] >>> videoconferencing to something that the world, as a whole, relied >>> on >>> to keep civilization running only 7 years later, in the face of >>> terrible odds, lights out environments, scarce equipment supplies, >>> and >>> illness. ISPs big and small helped too - Their people climbed >>> towers, >>> produced better code, rerouted networks, and stayed up late >>> fighting >>> off DDOSes. People at home shared their wifi and knowledge of how >>> to >>> make fiddly things on the net work well, over the internet - >>> >>> Nobody handed out medals for keeping the internet running, I do >>> not >>> remember a single statement of praise for what we did over that >>> terrible time. No one ever looks up after a productive day after a >>> zillion productive clicks and says (for one example) "Thank you >>> Paul >>> Vixie and Mokapetris for inventing DNS and Evan Hunt(bind) and >>> Simon >>> Kelly(dnsmasq) for shipping dns servers for free that only get it >>> wrong once in a while, and then recover so fast you don´t notice" >>> - >>> there are just endless complaints from those for whom it is not >>> working *right now* the way they expect. >>> >>> There are no nobel prizes for networking. But the scientists, >>> engineers, sysadmins and SREs kept improving things, and are >>> keeping >>> civilization running. It is kind of a cause for me - I get very >>> irked >>> at both sides whining when if only they could walk a mile in a >>> neteng´s shoes. I get respect from my neighbors at least, >>> sometimes >>> asked to fix a laptop or set up a router... and I still share my >>> wifi. >>> >>> If there was just some way to separate out the ire about other >>> aspects >>> of how the internet is going south (which I certainly share), and >>> somehow put respect for those in the trenches that work on keeping >>> the >>> Net running, back in the public conversation, I would really love >>> to >>> hear it. >>> >>> [1] Really great talk on networking by Van Jacobson in 2012, both >>> useful for its content, and the kind of quality we could only >>> achieve >>> then: https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 >>> >>>> -- >>>> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com >>>> living as The Truth is True >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> >>> -- >>> Oct 30: >>> >> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html >>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> -- >> >> Nathan Simington >> >> cell: 305-793-6899 _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://healthcare.gov > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain