Re: [NNagain] A quick report from the WISPA conference

["Sina Khanifar" <sina@waveform.com>]

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Not as far as Im aware, sadly.

*Sina Khanifar |* ** Waveform.com ( https://www.waveform.com/ ) | (949) 878 8202 | LinkedIn ( http://www.linkedin.com/in/sinakhanifar )

On Fri, Nov 17 2023 at 11:27 AM, Dave Taht < dave.taht@gmail.com > wrote:

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> Dear Sina:
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> I cannot help but wonder if t-mobile had got on top of the waveform test
> issues you were identifying for them back in oct 18th, 2022 yet?
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> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:17 PM Sina Khanifar <sina@waveform.com> wrote:
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>> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over
>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting?
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>> We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we
>> get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully.
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>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?
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>> I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the
>> moment - is there something I can read?
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>> On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really
>> wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to
>> routers. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer
>> routers that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their
>> routers, and also run download/upload tests.
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>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the
>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan
>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.
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>> T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and
>> all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointing
>> folks who reach out to this thread about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate,
>> but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to
>> apply pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I
>> think this is above their heads).
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>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
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>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar <sina@waveform.com> wrote:
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>>> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We've
>>> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing
>>> something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test
>>> than ever before, which has been fun!
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>>> Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto
>>> site for many now.
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>>> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over
>>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting?
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>>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?
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>>> ...
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>>> 
>>> I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth
>>> (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6
>>> product. A keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with
>>> waveform results on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless
>>> vendor demo'd privately to me their flent results before/after cake on
>>> their next-gen radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting for
>>> their bad bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me
>>> was... besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her
>>> schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth
>>> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked.
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>>> "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?"
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>>> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got
>>> cake."
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>>> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently.
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>>> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a
>>> bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet
>>> card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of
>>> service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a
>>> great, convincing pitch...
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>>> ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert
>>> after.
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>>> ...
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>>> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every
>>> person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber
>>> bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem
>>> pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole
>>> thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running
>>> directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios
>>> to drive the plan enforcement better
>>> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about
>>> the... physics.
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>>> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS
>>> 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their
>>> fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their
>>> network improve that way also.
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>>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the
>>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan
>>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.
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>>> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of
>>> this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?)
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>>> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference?
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>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat
>>> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
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>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com>
>>> wrote:
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>>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast
>>> <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
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>>> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in
>>> touch with the ifxit folk?
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>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI
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>>> I’m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it repeats
>>> all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard
>>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the
>>> “solution” is letting certain traffic “jump the line, angering everyone
>>> behind them”.
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>>> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more.
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>>> Some quotes from the video:
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>>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and
>>> just check out, especially since you’re in a hurry, but they’re rudely
>>> refusing
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>>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting
>>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well.
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>>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker saw
>>> you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the
>>> line or opens up an express lane just for you
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>>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple
>>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory
>>> itself.
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>>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the
>>> same failed solution that hasn’t worked for the last three decades.
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>>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses
>>> gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and
>>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing",
>>> with a screenshot of the most common
>>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake
>>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt.
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>>> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly
>>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take
>>> the test, there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k
>>> views, which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for
>>> example, a nanog conference.
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>>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results,
>>> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more
>>> right now!
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>>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tried
>>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake"
>>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them,
>>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla,
>>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various
>>> user forums.
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>>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing
>>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" -
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>>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal
>>> person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in
>>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to
>>> bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged
>>> then you get to “skip to the front of the line”. The solution to
>>> bufferbloat is that there is no line!
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>>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better
>>> string of explanations, explaining
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>>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all".
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>>> With grocery stores and airports people’s arrivals are independent and not
>>> controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generate
>>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form.
>>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to
>>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue
>>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service
>>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like
>>> before.
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>>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other
>>> side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather
>>> than timely backpressure?
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>>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree),
>>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach...
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>>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important
>>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most
>>> for fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in
>>> cake + qosify.
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>>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like
>>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing.
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>>> Stuart Cheshire
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>>> --
>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>> 
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>>> --
>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>> 
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> --
> :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave Täht
> CSO, LibreQos
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