Not as far as Im aware, sadly. *Sina Khanifar |* ** Waveform.com ( https://www.waveform.com/ ) | (949) 878 8202 | LinkedIn ( http://www.linkedin.com/in/sinakhanifar ) On Fri, Nov 17 2023 at 11:27 AM, Dave Taht < dave.taht@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > Dear Sina: > > > > I cannot help but wonder if t-mobile had got on top of the waveform test > issues you were identifying for them back in oct 18th, 2022 yet? > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:17 PM Sina Khanifar wrote: > > > > >> >> >> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over >> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we >> get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully. >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the >> moment - is there something I can read? >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really >> wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to >> routers. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer >> routers that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their >> routers, and also run download/upload tests. >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> >> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the >> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and >> all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointing >> folks who reach out to this thread about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, >> but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to >> apply pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I >> think this is above their heads). >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar wrote: >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We've >>> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing >>> something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test >>> than ever before, which has been fun! >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto >>> site for many now. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over >>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth >>> (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 >>> product. A keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with >>> waveform results on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless >>> vendor demo'd privately to me their flent results before/after cake on >>> their next-gen radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting for >>> their bad bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me >>> was... besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her >>> schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth >>> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?" >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got >>> cake." >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a >>> bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet >>> card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of >>> service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a >>> great, convincing pitch... >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert >>> after. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every >>> person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber >>> bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem >>> pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole >>> thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running >>> directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios >>> to drive the plan enforcement better >>> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about >>> the... physics. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS >>> 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their >>> fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their >>> network improve that way also. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the >>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of >>> this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in >>> touch with the ifxit folk? >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I’m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it repeats >>> all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard >>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the >>> “solution” is letting certain traffic “jump the line, angering everyone >>> behind them”. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Some quotes from the video: >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and >>> just check out, especially since you’re in a hurry, but they’re rudely >>> refusing >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting >>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker saw >>> you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the >>> line or opens up an express lane just for you >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple >>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory >>> itself. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the >>> same failed solution that hasn’t worked for the last three decades. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses >>> gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and >>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing", >>> with a screenshot of the most common >>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake >>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly >>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take >>> the test, there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k >>> views, which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for >>> example, a nanog conference. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, >>> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more >>> right now! >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tried >>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake" >>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them, >>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, >>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various >>> user forums. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing >>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal >>> person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in >>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to >>> bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged >>> then you get to “skip to the front of the line”. The solution to >>> bufferbloat is that there is no line! >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better >>> string of explanations, explaining >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> With grocery stores and airports people’s arrivals are independent and not >>> controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generate >>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form. >>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to >>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue >>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service >>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like >>> before. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other >>> side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather >>> than timely backpressure? >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), >>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important >>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most >>> for fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in >>> cake + qosify. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like >>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> Stuart Cheshire >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >> > > >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave Täht > CSO, LibreQos > > >