From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E8E13B2A4 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 11:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7ba9bd62fdfso1098797241.3 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:34:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=waveform.com; s=google; t=1700325294; x=1700930094; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=from:subject:message-id:date:to:references:in-reply-to:cc :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cZWcxdnH065uylQE0K4IkVLbXSaKcQINAqe2fZlzGiw=; b=fd2qs5vQdgwj2j5017in/CQAL/RNVcxVLWkbIIZmXyGqxrIZEaPJN3QaVpB7zJm5+3 N31bu1U3q6GTTYs0ARCiooPudiekA1n+KzhBfxDJ/MwMAyLn4RyDkX/0UkJTvlDEGaOU RZidAaSY8aE3olL5cSWgfWeQR0JiaZZXakRxhr9lDk3RWbigogb4iQjgVCsfT6rtlfaV 57FR8S4e7QyDaOcJ+rRwFYArpyBR977fXqPAQLmS8lOrf6RgYqXE9C0a+hy7X5HWYNPI h3HkMjvQNvxIJqMPkyc2SDe1L59jPpLjdfRCbW2fVEITM2xR4U5TG4be4FboAcG8CPfV k4iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700325294; x=1700930094; h=from:subject:message-id:date:to:references:in-reply-to:cc :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=cZWcxdnH065uylQE0K4IkVLbXSaKcQINAqe2fZlzGiw=; b=OLx8+nQiGz7IpgtGSa2So2ca+zoIj8R6ph7eymsHbw7k/GB+30sACuzrtqb6ol94Ht 9Zuv5HnOsfIiA1QE1ucRX56ez5AIIGJ++HkgV/26IQ89Dqz4QrnOKjbf45oLGa8HFx+D 6gaVZSLXLJpMLzZWKC/C/tmajKCg1tDrwU1n5T9RURQznfhbzjG5cSvPqgqrZ4UuETuG Iu7YlUoa9Nnp5kjQFVVSh1IKwwgDqJTC0ylrPv8+auK40tpW5PBJWzdJZwacCLusuzoU jxTNaukghfBekWU6necbbiYCQzxE9UBQEYEKnXmLTwqyIzca7QV7wVfxhztYqDJbY57k dLig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywyi1Y9yTePgIbhgLLx/B92u4x0dcoYWXhD6gt2VlGydUR1Bhqe luaD77jGTBqEvPuMmP3AVc8QEpC/yC4/RU/O/PXCy6SwdYHuJ0wpF1ultGQzf2e9L0jheZb5iaB 0URuskDelmZ/PCWTQOG2Ra1YTEcwHQ243O4pZmZRf6wNf8pRDrKfRPsuEz8Q/STHeoWRz9gbSHM MTjVXFB3Ubwmv//64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEEnWNkIOPbDxstMFPignUzUe1VEdGFrpZ9QNGwvBSGBE2E+rZLMpQ7f7ISfgTaMiI4XPunXA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:201e:b0:462:8fc4:3cff with SMTP id p30-20020a056102201e00b004628fc43cffmr1569539vsr.27.1700325294247; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (0.92.231.35.bc.googleusercontent.com. [35.231.92.0]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id f8-20020a67fa88000000b004589e3c0e78sm669983vsq.12.2023.11.18.08.34.53 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:34:53 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: =?UTF-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspec?= =?UTF-8?q?ts_heard_this_time!?= In-Reply-To: References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> To: "Dave Taht" Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 16:34:52 +0000 Message-ID: X-Superhuman-ID: lp49rko4.66c63552-fcd7-46e9-85fb-7e08bf788e78 X-Mailer: Superhuman iOS 10896 X-Superhuman-Draft-ID: draft0055f3858b2afb44 From: "Sina Khanifar" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=1832bb4decec02e1df8739bb94c345777aea4e5736dd35e1c26624bcbfc5 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 11:42:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [NNagain] A quick report from the WISPA conference X-BeenThere: nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: =?utf-8?q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?= List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 16:34:56 -0000 --1832bb4decec02e1df8739bb94c345777aea4e5736dd35e1c26624bcbfc5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Not as far as Im aware, sadly. *Sina Khanifar |* ** Waveform.com ( https://www.waveform.com/ ) | (949) 878= 8202 | LinkedIn ( http://www.linkedin.com/in/sinakhanifar ) On Fri, Nov 17 2023 at 11:27 AM, Dave Taht < dave.taht@gmail.com > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dear Sina: >=20 >=20 >=20 > I cannot help but wonder if t-mobile had got on top of the waveform test > issues you were identifying for them back in oct 18th, 2022 yet? >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:17=E2=80=AFPM Sina Khanifar = wrote: > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over >> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we >> get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the >> moment - is there something I can read? >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really >> wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to >> routers. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer >> routers that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their >> routers, and also run download/upload tests. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in t= he >> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, an= d >> all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointin= g >> folks who reach out to this thread about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, >> but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to >> apply pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but= I >> think this is above their heads). >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar wrote= : >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We= 've >>> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing >>> something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn t= est >>> than ever before, which has been fun! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto >>> site for many now. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over >>> time, as to how much better the problem is getting? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth >>> (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 >>> product. A keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with >>> waveform results on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless >>> vendor demo'd privately to me their flent results before/after cake on >>> their next-gen radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting = for >>> their bad bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me >>> was... besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged h= er >>> schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth >>> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?" >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got >>> cake." >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a >>> bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethern= et >>> card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of >>> service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It wa= s a >>> great, convincing pitch... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert >>> after. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly ever= y >>> person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber >>> bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem >>> pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whol= e >>> thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running >>> directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radi= os >>> to drive the plan enforcement better >>> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about >>> the... physics. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS >>> 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill thei= r >>> fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their >>> network improve that way also. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in = the >>> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan >>> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of >>> this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get i= n >>> touch with the ifxit folk? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it= repeats >>> all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard >>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the >>> =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the= line, angering everyone >>> behind them=E2=80=9D. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Some quotes from the video: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line an= d >>> just check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they=E2= =80=99re rudely >>> refusing >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting >>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker = saw >>> you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of th= e >>> line or opens up an express lane just for you >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple >>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory >>> itself. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the >>> same failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three deca= des. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disse= s >>> gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, = and >>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queuein= g", >>> with a screenshot of the most common >>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and ca= ke >>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwr= t. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly >>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to t= ake >>> the test, there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k >>> views, which is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for >>> example, a nanog conference. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, >>> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it mo= re >>> right now! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tri= ed >>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake= " >>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for the= m, >>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, >>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various >>> user forums. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing >>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" - >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal >>> person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting = in >>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to >>> bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privile= ged >>> then you get to =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The so= lution to >>> bufferbloat is that there is no line! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better >>> string of explanations, explaining >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all". >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are independ= ent and not >>> controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generate >>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form= . >>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to >>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queu= e >>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service >>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just l= ike >>> before. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the othe= r >>> side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rat= her >>> than timely backpressure? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), >>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach... >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important >>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the mo= st >>> for fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in >>> cake + qosify. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would l= ike >>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Stuart Cheshire >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366= 665607352320-FXtz >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366= 665607352320-FXtz >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T= =C3=A4ht > CSO, LibreQos >=20 >=20 > --1832bb4decec02e1df8739bb94c345777aea4e5736dd35e1c26624bcbfc5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Not as far as Im aware, sadly.
3D"

Sina Khanifar |=C2=A0Waveform.com=C2=A0|=C2=A0(949) 878 8202 |=C2=A0LinkedIn
=20

On Fri, Nov 17 2023 at 11:27 AM, Dave Taht <dave.t= aht@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sina:

I cannot help but wonder if t-mobile had got on top of the waveform test issues you were identifying for them back in oct 18th, 2022 yet?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:17=E2=80=AFPM Sina Khanifar <sina@waveform.com= > wrote:
>

I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over = time, as to how much better the problem is getting?

>
>

We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If w= e get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully.

>

And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?

>
>

I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the mo= ment - is there something I can read?

>

On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really wi= shed existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to route= rs. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer routers t= hat allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and a= lso run download/upload tests.

>

I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the = fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan enforceme= nt, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.

>
>

T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and a= ll of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointin= g folks who reach out to this thread about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, = but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to appl= y pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I = think this is above their heads).

>
>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrot= e:

>>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar <sina@waveform.com> wro= te:

>>

Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We'= ;ve been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing so= mething around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn tes= t than ever before, which has been fun!

>>

Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto site= for many now.

>>

I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over = time, as to how much better the problem is getting?

>>

And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?

>>

...

>>

I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth
(fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6 prod= uct. A keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform results o= n the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless vendor demo'd priv= ately to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-gen radios.= .. and people dissed tarana without me prompting for their bad bufferbloat.= .. and the best thing of all that happened to me was... besides getting a h= ug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her schooling in alaska usi= ng sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth
(another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked.

>>

"So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?"

>>

And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've go= t cake."

>>

"Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently.

>>

They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a bunch= of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet card t= hey were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of service= , and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a great, = convincing pitch...

>>

... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both conce= rt after.

>>

...

>>

The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every pe= rson I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber bandw= idth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem pioneere= d) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole thing = because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", runni= ng directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radio= s to drive the plan enforcement better
(which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about= the... physics.

>>

So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS
7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their fi= fos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their netwo= rk improve that way also.

>>

I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the = fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan enforceme= nt, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.

>>

I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of thi= s year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?)

>>

I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference?

>>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferb= loat.net> wrote:

>>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com> = wrote:

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On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@li= sts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

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This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in to= uch with the ifxit folk?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUICh3ScfNWI

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I=E2=80=99m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it rep= eats all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard = terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the =E2= =80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D is letting certain traffic =E2=80=9Cjump the line, = angering everyone behind them=E2=80=9D.

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Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more.

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Some quotes from the video:

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it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and ju= st check out, especially since you=E2=80=99re in a hurry, but they=E2=80=99= re rudely refusing

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I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting everyone= in front of him (AQM) would not go down well.

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to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker saw = you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the li= ne or opens up an express lane just for you

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Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple checker= analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory itself.

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The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the same= failed solution that hasn=E2=80=99t worked for the last three decades.

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Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses ga= mer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and th= en to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing&= #34;, with a screenshot of the most common
(eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and ca= ke *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt= .

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Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly percentag= e already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take the test, there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, w= hich is more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, = a nanog conference.

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I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results, witho= ut having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more right = now!

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At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we= 9;ve tried to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenW= rt", fq_codel and now "cake" are "good" things to have,= and are stimulating demand by asking for them, It's certainly working = out better and better for evenroute, firewalla, ubnt and others, and I saw = an uptick in questions about this on various user forums.

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I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing bu= fferbloat doesn't solve everything" -

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Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal perso= n would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in grocer= y stores and airports, is not describing the solution to bufferbloat. The s= olution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged then you get to = =E2=80=9Cskip to the front of the line=E2=80=9D. The solution to bufferbloa= t is that there is no line!

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I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better strin= g of explanations, explaining

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- "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all= 4;.

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With grocery stores and airports people=E2=80=99s arrivals are independent = and not controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to gener= ate backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form= . The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to preve= nt the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue and the= n deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service than all th= e other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like before.

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I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the = other side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling r= ather than timely backpressure?

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Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree), different= audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach...

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but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important thi= ngs, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most for fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in cake + = qosify.

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maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like = another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing.

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Stuart Cheshire

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--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://= www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320= -FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
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>>

--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://= www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320= -FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

>
>

--=20
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos

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