[Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM

Thu Dec 9 13:54:34 EST 2021

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 19:23 Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Luca,
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello <muscariello at ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Sebastian
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi Luca
> >
> > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello <muscariello at ieee.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > > Hi Dave,
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello <
> muscariello at ieee.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245
> > > >>
> > > >>
> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=bbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5
> > > >
> > > > Nice.
> > > >
> > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the
> same time.
> > > >
> > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these
> speeds.
> > > >
> > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to
> determine
> > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not.
> > >
> > >         Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type
> reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range of
> "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly and
> nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to
> matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause
> "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against
> jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequal
> jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no?
> (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant
> problem for internet game-play).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM,
> Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal
> network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the
> gamer.
> >
> >         Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe
> above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different
> player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal
> ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives?
> >
> > Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to
> compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero
> it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies
> of distributed computing.
> >
> > Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix
> update  accuracy reactively.
>
>         Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not implementation. I fully
> agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to make the causality
> problems of different information propagation delays appear less often. In
> retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions" alstready covered ;)
>
>
> > Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the
> illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you
> can continue to play almost offline against bots.
>
>         I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels like "cheating".
>

That's what I was referring to when I wrote that the game studio works on
the experience they want to provide. If the game is a competitive game with
esport competitions where accuracy is crucial that has implications on the
way the netcode is written.

If the studio is looking for gamer retention it's important the gamer with
little experience is able to learn, get more skilled and have fun along the
way before they get to the competitive level.

BTW, it is not cheating. It is fishing in some sense.

> >
> > There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is
> very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal
> inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of
> League of Legends Wild Rift.
>
>         Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last two ;)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards
>         Sebastan
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >         Sebastian
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > We had them participating on this list at some point....
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor
> NOT
> > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with
> someones
> > > >>> with accounts?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Bloat mailing list
> > > >>> Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> > > >
> > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>
>
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