[Bloat] A quick report from the WISPA conference
Sina Khanifar
sina at waveform.com
Tue Oct 18 13:17:16 EDT 2022
>
>
>
> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over
> time, as to how much better the problem is getting?
>
>
>
We are collecting anonymized data, but we haven't analyzed it yet. If we get a bit of time we'll look at that hopefully.
>
>
>
> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?
>
>
>
I'm actually not exactly sure what mitigations exist for WiFi at the moment - is there something I can read?
On this note: when we were building our test one of the things we really wished existed was a standardized way to test latency and throughput to routers. It would be super helpful if there was a standard in consumer routers that allowed users to both ping and fetch 0kB fils from their routers, and also run download/upload tests.
>
>
>
> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the
> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan
> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.
>
>
>
T-Mobile has signed up 1m+ people to their new Home Internet over 5G, and all of them have really meaningful bufferbloat issues. I've been pointing folks who reach out to this thread ( https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth-historic/108848 ) about cake-autorate and sqm-autorate, but ideally it would be fixed at a network level, just not sure how to apply pressure (I'm in contact with the T-Mobile Home Internet team, but I think this is above their heads).
On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 8:15 PM, Dave Taht < dave.taht at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:51 PM Sina Khanifar < sina@ waveform. com (
> sina at waveform.com ) > wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Positive or negative, I can claim a bit of credit for this video :). We've
>> been working with LTT on a few projects and we pitched them on doing
>> something around bufferbloat. We've seen more traffic to our Waveforn test
>> than ever before, which has been fun!
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Thank you. Great job with that video! And waveform has become the goto
> site for many now.
>
>
>
>
> I can't help but wonder tho... are you collecting any statistics, over
> time, as to how much better the problem is getting?
>
>
>
>
> And any chance they could do something similar explaining wifi?
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
> I was just at WISPA conference week before last. Preseem's booth
> (fq_codel) was always packed. Vilo living had put cake in their wifi 6
> product. A
> keynote speaker had deployed it and talked about it with waveform results
> on the big screen (2k people there). A large wireless vendor demo'd
> privately to me their flent results before/after cake on their next-gen
> radios... and people dissed tarana without me prompting for their bad
> bufferbloat... and the best thing of all that happened to me was...
> besides getting a hug from a young lady (megan) who'd salvaged her
> schooling in alaska using sqm - I walked up to the paraqum booth
> (another large QoE middlebox maker centered more in india) and asked.
>
>
>
> "So... do y'all have fq_codel yet?"
>
>
>
>
> And they smiled and said: "No, we have something better... we've got
> cake."
>
>
>
>
> "Cake? What's that?" - I said, innocently.
>
>
>
>
> They then stepped me through their 200Gbps (!!) product, which uses a
> bunch of offloads, and can track rtt down to a ms with the intel ethernet
> card they were using. They'd modifed cake to provide 16 (?) levels of
> service, and were running under dpdk (I am not sure if cake was). It was a
> great, convincing pitch...
>
>
>
>
> ... then I told 'em who I was. There's a video of the in-both concert
> after.
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
> The downside to me (and the subject of my talk) was that in nearly every
> person I talked to, fq_codel was viewed as a means to better subscriber
> bandwidth plan enforcement (which is admittedly the market that preseem
> pioneered) and it was not understood that I'd got involved in this whole
> thing because I'd wanted an algorithm to deal with "rain fade", running
> directly on the radios. People wanted to use the statistics on the radios
> to drive the plan enforcement better
> (which is an ok approach, I guess), and for 10+ I'd been whinging about
> the... physics.
>
>
>
> So I ranted about rfc7567 a lot and begged people now putting routerOS
> 7.2 and later out there (mikrotik is huge in this market), to kill their
> fifos and sfqs at the native rates of the interfaces... and watch their
> network improve that way also.
>
>
>
> I think one more wispa conference will be a clean sweep of everyone in the
> fixed wireless market to not only adopt these algorithms for plan
> enforcement, but even more directly on the radios and more CPE.
>
>
>
>
> I also picked up enough consulting business to keep me busy the rest of
> this year, and possibly more than I can handle (anybody looking?)
>
>
>
>
> I wonder what will happen at a fiber conference?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:45 PM Dave Taht via Bloat < bloat@ lists. bufferbloat.
>> net ( bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net ) > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 5:02 PM Stuart Cheshire < cheshire@ apple. com (
>>> cheshire at apple.com ) > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Oct 2022, at 06:14, Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast < make-wifi-fast@ lists.
>>>> bufferbloat. net ( make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net ) > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This was so massively well done, I cried. Does anyone know how to get in
>>>>> touch with the ifxit folk?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https:/ / www. youtube. com/ watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI (
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UICh3ScfNWI )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m surprised that you liked this video. It seems to me that it repeats
>>>> all the standard misinformation. The analogy they use is the standard
>>>> terrible example of waiting in a long line at a grocery store, and the
>>>> “solution” is letting certain traffic “jump the line, angering everyone
>>>> behind them”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Accuracy be damned. The analogy to common experience resonates more.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some quotes from the video:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> it would be so much more efficient for them to let you skip the line and
>>>>> just check out, especially since you’re in a hurry, but they’re rudely
>>>>> refusing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the person with the cheetos pulling out a gun and shooting
>>> everyone in front of him (AQM) would not go down well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> to go back to our grocery store analogy this would be like if a worker saw
>>>>> you standing at the back ... and either let you skip to the front of the
>>>>> line or opens up an express lane just for you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually that analogy is fairly close to fair queuing. The multiple
>>> checker analogy is one of the most common analogies in queue theory
>>> itself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The video describes the problem of bufferbloat, and then describes the
>>>> same failed solution that hasn’t worked for the last three decades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm? It establishes the scenario, explains the problem *quickly*, disses
>>> gamer routers for not getting it right.. *points to an accurate test*, and
>>> then to the ideas and products that *actually work* with "smart queueing",
>>> with a screenshot of the most common
>>> (eero's optimize for gaming and videoconferencing), and fq_codel and cake
>>> *by name*, and points folk at the best known solution available, openwrt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bing, baddabang, boom. Also the comments were revealing. A goodly
>>> percentage already knew the problem, more than a few were inspired to take
>>> the test,
>>> there was a whole bunch of "Aha!" success stories and 360k views, which is
>>> more people than we've ever been able to reach in for example, a nanog
>>> conference.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I loved that folk taking the test actually had quite a few A results,
>>> without having had to do anything. At least some ISPs are getting it more
>>> right now!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point I think gamers in particular know what "brands" we've tried
>>> to establish - "Smart queues", "SQM", "OpenWrt", fq_codel and now "cake"
>>> are "good" things to have, and are stimulating demand by asking for them,
>>> It's certainly working out better and better for evenroute, firewalla,
>>> ubnt and others, and I saw an uptick in questions about this on various
>>> user forums.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I even like that there's a backlash now of people saying "fixing
>>> bufferbloat doesn't solve everything" -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Describing the obvious simple-minded (wrong) solution that any normal
>>>> person would think of based on their personal human experience waiting in
>>>> grocery stores and airports, is not describing the solution to
>>>> bufferbloat. The solution to bufferbloat is not that if you are privileged
>>>> then you get to “skip to the front of the line”. The solution to
>>>> bufferbloat is that there is no line!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I like the idea of a guru floating above a grocery cart with a better
>>> string of explanations, explaining
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - "no, grasshopper, the solution to bufferbloat is no line... at all".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With grocery stores and airports people’s arrivals are independent and not
>>>> controlled. There is no way for a grocery store or airport to generate
>>>> backpressure to tell people to wait at home when a queue begins to form.
>>>> The key to solving bufferbloat is generating timely backpressure to
>>>> prevent the queue forming in the first place, not accepting a huge queue
>>>> and then deciding who deserves special treatment to get better service
>>>> than all the other peons who still have to wait in a long queue, just like
>>>> before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not huge on the word "backpressure" here. Needs to signal the other
>>> side to slow down, is more accurate. So might say timely signalling rather
>>> than timely backpressure?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Other feedback I got was that the video was too smarmy (I agree),
>>> different audiences than gamers need different forms of outreach...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> but to me, winning the gamers has always been one of the most important
>>> things, as they make a lot of buying decisions, and they benefit the most
>>> for
>>> fq and packet prioritization as we do today in gamer routers and in cake +
>>> qosify.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> maybe that gets in the way of more serious markets. Certainly I would like
>>> another video explaining what goes wrong with videoconferencing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart Cheshire
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https:/
>>> / www. linkedin. com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>> (
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>> ) Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@ lists. bufferbloat. net ( Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net )
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https:/
> / www. linkedin. com/ posts/ dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> (
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> ) Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>
>
>
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