<font face="arial" size="2"><p style="margin:0;padding:0;">I don't think that at all. I suspect you know that. But if I confused you, let me assure you that my view of the proper operating point of the Internet as a whole is that the expected buffer queue on any switch anywhere in the Internet is < 1 datagram.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">fq_codel is a good start, but it still requires letting buffer queueing increase. However, mathematically, one need not have the queues build up to sustain the control loop that fq_codel creates.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">I conjecture that one can create an equally effective congestion control mechanism as fq_codel without any standing queues being allowed to build up. (Someone should try the exercise of trying to prove that an optimal end-to-end feedback control system requires queueing delay to be imposed. I've tried and it's led me to the conjecture that one can always replace a standing queue with a finite memory of past activities - and if one does, the lack of a standing queue means that the algorithm is better than any that end up with a standing queue).</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">fq_codel could be redesigned into a queue-free fq_codel.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"><br class="WM_COMPOSE_SIGNATURE_END" /><br /><br />On Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:46pm, "David Lang" <david@lang.hm> said:<br /><br /></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">> If you think "fast lanes" will actually increase performance for any traffic,<br />> you are dreaming.<br />> <br />> the people looking for "fast lanes" are't trying to get traffic through any<br />> faster, they are looking to charge more for the traffic they are already<br />> passing.<br />> <br />> David Lang<br />> <br />> On Thu, 15 May 2014, dpreed@reed.com wrote:<br />> <br />> > Well done. I'm optimistic for deployment everywhere, except CMTS's, the LTE<br />> and HSPA+ access networks, and all corporate firewall and intranet gear.<br />> ><br />> > The solution du jour is to leave bufferbloat in place, while using the real<br />> fads: prioritization (diffserv once we have the "fast lanes" fully legal) and<br />> "software defined networking" appliances that use DPI for packet routing and<br />> traffic management.<br />> ><br />> > Fixing buffer bloat allows the edge- and enterprise- networks to be more<br />> efficient, whereas not fixing it lets the edge networks move users up to more and<br />> more expensive "plans" due to frustration and to sell much more gear into<br />> Enterprises because they are easy marks for complex gadgets.<br />> ><br />> > But maybe a few engineers who operate and design gear for such networks will<br />> overcome the incredible business biases against fixing this.<br />> ><br />> > That's why all the efforts you guys have put forth are immensely worth it. I<br />> think this is one of the best innovations in recent years (Bram Cohen's original<br />> BitTorrent is another, for fully decentralizing data delivery for the very first<br />> time in a brilliant way.) I will certainly push everywhere I can to see fq_codel<br />> deployed.<br />> ><br />> > If there were a prize for brilliant projects, this would be top on my list.<br />> ><br />> ><br />> ><br />> > On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:25pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com><br />> said:<br />> ><br />> ><br />> ><br />> >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Kathleen Nichols<br />> <nichols@pollere.com><br />> >> wrote:<br />> >> ><br />> >> > Thanks, Rich.<br />> >> ><br />> >> > And to show you what an amazing bit of work that first fq_codel was,<br />> I have<br />> >> > on my calendar that I first "exposed" CoDel to a small group in a<br />> >> > meeting room<br />> >> > and on the phone at ISC on April 24.<br />> >><br />> >> And we had all sorts of trouble with the phone, (eric didn't hear<br />> >> much) and we then spent hours and hours afterwards discussing wifi<br />> >> instead of codel... it was too much to take in...<br />> >><br />> >> me, I'd started jumping up and down in excitement about 20 minutes<br />> >> into kathies preso...<br />> >><br />> >> May 3rd, 2012 was the last 24 hr coding stint I think I'll ever have.<br />> >><br />> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/000023.html<br />> >><br />> >> Ahh, the good ole days, when bufferbloat was first solved and we all<br />> >> thought the internet would speed up overnight, and we were going to be<br />> >> rock stars, invited to all the best parties, acquire fame and fortune,<br />> >> and be awarded medals and given awards. Re-reading all this brought<br />> >> back memories.... (heck, there's still a couple good ideas in that<br />> >> thread left unimplemented)<br />> >><br />> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/thread.html<br />> >><br />> >> It looks by may 5th we were getting in shape, and then there were a<br />> >> few other issues along the way with the control law and so on... and<br />> >> eric rewrote the whole thing and made it oodles faster and then as<br />> >> best as I recall came up with fq_codel on saturday may 5th(?) -<br />> >><br />> >> Ah, I haven't had so much fun in in years. My life since then seems<br />> >> like an endless string of meetings, politics, and bugfixing.<br />> >><br />> >> The code went from sim/paper, to code, to testing, to mainline linux<br />> >> in another week. I wish more research went like that!<br />> >><br />> >> commit 76e3cc126bb223013a6b9a0e2a51238d1ef2e409<br />> >> Author: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com><br />> >> Date: Thu May 10 07:51:25 2012 +0000<br />> >><br />> >> codel: Controlled Delay AQM<br />> >><br />> >> Now, as I recall the story, eric came up with fq_codel on a saturday<br />> >> afternoon, so I guess that was may 5th - cinco de mayo!<br />> >><br />> >> And that too, landed in mainline...<br />> >><br />> >> commit 4b549a2ef4bef9965d97cbd992ba67930cd3e0fe<br />> >> Author: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com><br />> >> Date: Fri May 11 09:30:50 2012 +0000<br />> >><br />> >> fq_codel: Fair Queue Codel AQM<br />> >><br />> >> let's not forget tom herbert & BQL<br />> >><br />> >> commit 75957ba36c05b979701e9ec64b37819adc12f830<br />> >> Author: Tom Herbert <therbert@google.com><br />> >> Date: Mon Nov 28 16:32:35 2011 +0000<br />> >><br />> >> dql: Dynamic queue limits<br />> >><br />> >> Implementation of dynamic queue limits (dql). This is a libary<br />> which<br />> >> allows a queue limit to be dynamically managed. The goal of dql is<br />> >> to set the queue limit, number of objects to the queue, to be<br />> minimized<br />> >> without allowing the queue to be starved.<br />> >><br />> >><br />> >><br />> >><br />> >> > It was really amazing to me to watch<br />> >> > something Van and I had been discussing (okay, arguing) about<br />> privately for<br />> >> > 6 months and I'd been tinkering with be turned into real code on<br />> real<br />> >> > networks.<br />> >> > Jim Gettys is an incredible (and constructive) nagger, Eric Dumazet<br />> and<br />> >> > amazing<br />> >> > coder, and the entire open source community a really nifty group of<br />> folks.<br />> >> ><br />> >> > Maybe someday we will actually update the first article with some of<br />> the<br />> >> > stuff<br />> >> > we got into the last internet draft....<br />> >> ><br />> >> > be the change,<br />> >> > Kathie<br />> >> ><br />> >> > On 5/14/14 2:01 PM, Rich Brown wrote:<br />> >> >> Folks,<br />> >> >><br />> >> >> I just noticed that the announcement for the first testable<br />> >> >> implementation of fq_codel was two days ago today - 14 May<br />> 2012.<br />> >> >> Build 3.3.6-2 was the first to include working fq_codel.<br />> >> >><br />> >><br />> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html<br />> >> >><br />> >> >> Two years later, we see fq_codel being adopted lots of places.<br />> As<br />> >> >> more and more people/organizations come to understand the<br />> problem,<br />> >> >> and how straightforward the solution can be, we're beginning to<br />> win<br />> >> >> the battle to have a good Internet experience everywhere.<br />> >> >><br />> >> >> Thanks to Dave, Eric, Kathie, Van, and all the members of this<br />> list<br />> >> >> for their perseverance, testing, comments, and patience.<br />> >> >> Congratulations!<br />> >> >><br />> >> >> Best regards,<br />> >> >><br />> >> >> Rich _______________________________________________ Bloat<br />> mailing<br />> >> >> list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br />> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<br />> >> >><br />> >> ><br />> >> > _______________________________________________<br />> >> > Bloat mailing list<br />> >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br />> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<br />> >><br />> >><br />> >><br />> >> --<br />> >> Dave Täht<br />> >><br />> >> NSFW:<br />> >><br />> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article<br />> >> _______________________________________________<br />> >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br />> >> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net<br />> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel<br />> >>_______________________________________________<br />> Bloat mailing list<br />> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br />> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<br />></p>
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