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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi Jerry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>isn't this the problem statement of
Conex?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Again, you at the end host would gain little
insight with Conex, but every intermediate network operator can observe the
red/black marked packets, compare the ratios and know to what extent (by looking
at ingress vs egress into his network ) he is contributing...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jerryj@duckware.com href="mailto:jerryj@duckware.com">Jerry
Jongerius</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=richb.hanover@gmail.com
href="mailto:richb.hanover@gmail.com">'Rich Brown'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 28, 2014 6:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bloat] The Dark Problem
with AQM in the Internet?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
add accountability. Everyone in the path right now denies that they
could possibly be the one dropping the packet.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
I want (or need!) to address the problem, I can’t now. I would have to
make a change and just hope that it fixed the problem.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">With
accountability, I can address the problem. I then have a choice.
If the problem is the ISP, I can switch ISP’s. If the problem is the
mid-level peer or the hosting provider, I can test out new hosting
providers.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">-
Jerry<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rich Brown
[mailto:richb.hanover@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 28, 2014
10:39 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Jerry Jongerius<BR><B>Cc:</B> Greg White; Sebastian
Moeller; bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bloat] The Dark
Problem with AQM in the Internet?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Hi Jerry,<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">AQM<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>is</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>a great solution for
bufferbloat. End of story. But if you want to track down which
device in the network intentionally dropped a packet (when many devices in
the network path will be running AQM), how are<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>you</I><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>going to do that? Or how
do<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>you</I>propose to do
that?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Yes, but... I want to understand why you are looking to
know which device dropped the packet. What would you do with the
information?<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The great beauty of fq_codel is that it discards packets
that have dwelt too long in a queue by actually *measuring* how long they've
been in the queue. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>If the drops happen in your local gateway/home router, then
it's interesting to you as the "operator" of that device. If the drops happen
elsewhere (perhaps some enlightened ISP has installed fq_codel, PIE, or some
other zoomy queue discipline) then they're doing the right thing as well -
they're managing their traffic as well as they can. But once the data leaves
your gateway router, you can't make any further
predictions.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The SQM/AQM efforts of CeroWrt/fq_codel are designed to
give near optimal performance of the *local* gateway, to make it adapt to the
remainder of the (black box) network. It might make sense to instrument the
CeroWrt/OpenWrt code to track the number of fq_codel drops to come up with a
sense of what's 'normal'. And if you need to know exactly what's happening,
then tcpdump/wireshark are your friends. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Maybe I'm missing the point of your note, but I'm not sure
there's anything you can do beyond your gateway. In the broader network,
operators are continually watching their traffic and drop rates, and
adjusting/reconfiguring their networks to adapt. But in general, it's
impossible for you to have any sway/influence on their operations, so I'm not
sure what you would do if you could know that the third router in traceroute
was dropping...<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Rich<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Bloat mailing
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