<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Bill Ver Steeg (versteb) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:versteb@cisco.com" target="_blank">versteb@cisco.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">While I do not formally speak for “a big vendor” in this (or any) context, I do happen to work for one.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There are several efforts underway within this particular big vendor to address bloat. Are these efforts crash programs to get code out the door as fast as
humanly possible? No. There are efforts underway, though. These things take time…… To be frank, the best way to drive feature development/deployment/adoption in most big companies is to have customers ask for them.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Creating understanding and demand has been my nearly f/t project for several years now. I hope it is finally starting to work!</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">However, along the way - in trying to work with everybody in all parts of the industry, and to "get along" - I found myself in a deep moral and mental hole where I realized I was no longer being true to myself or being effective in what I had really set out to do by attempting to create this open, shared project, where I had hoped we all would be working together for a common goal. </div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">It was probably the gogo-in-flight test results with a *total lack of ping loss* and *12 minutes of latency* that set me off in the beginning... here are some pings from the middle of the test:</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><div>64 bytes from :elided: icmp_seq=5108 ttl=42 time=144333 ms</div><div>64 bytes from :elided: icmp_seq=5109 ttl=42 time=143335 ms</div><div>64 bytes from :elided: icmp_seq=5110 ttl=42 time=142327 ms</div><div>64 bytes from :elided: icmp_seq=5111 ttl=42 time=141319 ms</div><div>64 bytes from :elided: icmp_seq=5113 ttl=42 time=139311 ms</div></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">netperf-wrapper results and the ping log of the flight as it went towards landing are here:</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/gogo-in-flight-interplanetary-latencies.tgz" target="_blank">http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/gogo-in-flight-interplanetary-latencies.tgz</a><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">of the actual remaining throughput and latency on the aircraft, after a test had completed (sort of), and another started: <a href="http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/GoGoSFO/gogo_in_flight_interplanetary_latencies.png" target="_blank">http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/GoGoSFO/gogo_in_flight_interplanetary_latencies.png</a></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">(netperf-wrapper was not designed to deal with RTTs greater than from here to mars, so<br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">the plot doesn't make much sense! The pings don't fit right! But the bandwidth is *gone*)</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Gogo-in-flight, at least, could use a crash program to fix their bufferbloat! I know that adding a 50 dollar openwrt box or upgrading their software would probably cost a lot in regulatory approvals, but gawd!!! 12 minutes of latency! A total collapse of their network! From a simple test! And despite trying through every channel I could, I have not found anyone there with an IQ above 80 to talk to about how to dramatically fix their own services. They make their money from selling the service, not, actually, in providing it, in a totally captive market.</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">And at some point, you just have to laugh - as I did when I called them out, and gave them the finger, at nznog.</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">And my inspiration, for what basically has caused me to rear back, and start saying and doing exactly what I think, *all the time*, a few weeks ago, here and on the internet, in words that that were utterly clear, short and simple, was George Carlin's piece, here:</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc</a><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">It is NSFW, but I do find clearing the air, has been useful, and I hope everyone here, laughs their collective arses off at this!</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I will write more tomorrow, I'm done today. I have *severe trust issues* where your company is concerned, and I will detail why, tomorrow, publicly, if I can filter out the cuss words and be at least reasonably polite about it. </div></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We are actually starting to see broader awareness of the problem at the SP network edge, and this is probably where we need solutions the fastest. There have
been some gap-filler changes in the HFC space recently, and the next generation CMTS products will have a quite robust solution. As noted previously, the CPE and the DSLAMs will also need to be addressed. Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately to some folks on
this list…. but I digress), the company I work for is no longer in these parts of the business, as we sold off the Linksys group off a few years ago and got out of the DSLAM business many years ago. I do still have some contacts in the chipset vendor community
in the CPE space, and could help drive awareness if it would help. As most of us understand, the chipset vendors have a lot clout in this area - as they supply most of the heavy lifting code to the OEM/ODM CPE folks for their commercial offers. The open source
community is currently ahead of the chipset folks and the OEM/ODM folks in this space.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">So, IMHO the best way to make progress in the CPE arena is to get the chipset vendors to provide a robust AQM scheme in their default drivers. There may have
to be some tweaks to get a given algorithm to work in a given chipset/memory/CPU architecture. In fact, there may be room for algorithms that take advantage of features of a given chipset, or to design a new chipset that “does the right thing” in uCode. If
I were a consultant – this is where I would focus my efforts……….<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I am not sure how to crack the DSLAM egg, though. Different set of players, different set of initial conditions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bill VerSteeg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Morton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 02, 2015 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kathleen Nichols<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bloat<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bloat] [aqm] ping loss "considered harmful"<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
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<p>Probably the least cynical answer to that I can come up with is the hope that big vendors get a clue that this stuff is needed, and start hiring field experts as consultants to help them get it right.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>You can stop snickering now.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Another possibility is that some of us have to club together and make our own hardware that Does The Right Thing, possibly still based on one of the generic reference hardware platforms, if we can find one that we like and is cheap enough to compete. Which,
once again, would take care of the CPE problem but practically nothing else, unless we somehow managed to get a foot in the door of the DSLAM market. Which is about as likely as the Prince of Darkness taking a skiing holiday at home.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>- Jonathan Morton<u></u><u></u></p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">Dave Täht<br>Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again!<br><br><a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb" target="_blank">https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb</a><br></div>
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