<div dir="ltr">Consider starting from the incorrect default premise in many households: if you want to get something done, yell at the teenagers to stop streaming. Make the point that many people fail to recognize that "manual traffic management" is really a workaround for busted network devices. It would be cool if you had an easily reproduced manual example, such as poor interactive response on one device while running a speed test on another device.<div><br></div><div>To be simplistic, you might just talk about cake vs (bloated) drop tail. To be thorough, you also need to make the case that cake is better than other AQMs. This feels like too much for LWN, but silence on other solutions might trigger skeptics.</div><div><br></div><div>I think your main audience is the extended WRT community - the people who you want to bake this into future products. Think about what side issues might matter to them (no manual config?). Although gamers also care, they are an easy sell.</div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay<br><br>We must not tolerate intolerance;</div><div dir="ltr"> however our response must be carefully measured: </div><div> too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;</div><div> too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 8:43 AM Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear David:<br>
<br>
I think freeswitch still has a public sip echo server which might be a<br>
better test than skype? I tend to think there is a lot of bloat on<br>
the endpoints nowadays because it "helps" on not having to deal with<br>
jitter<br>
that the bloat on the rest of the internet induces. But 1sec you got<br>
on skype in your test below is NUTS. I hacked a bit on BBB earlier<br>
this year to get their number down to sanity.<br>
<br>
I find endless videoconferencing nowadays to be really tiring and<br>
frustrating. Am I alone in this? I have to go outside and scream after<br>
two hours. Log off entirely after 4.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM David Collier-Brown <<a href="mailto:davecb.42@gmail.com" target="_blank">davecb.42@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Just FYI, I did two tests today, in my Copious Spare Time<br>
><br>
> a DSLReports speed test using an IQrouter, and<br>
> a Skype "tap" test, with and without the de-bloated router<br>
><br>
> The router did exactly what I expected: it vaporized the bloat-induced delay provided by Rogers.<br>
><br>
> My previous bloat-induced lag was between 700 and 900 milliseconds under load, and an unimpressive 240 milliseconds when idle. With a de-bloated router, lag was 40 milliseconds maximum, whether idle or loaded, and about 30 millisecond minimum, or a 3500 km round-trip, appropriate for the distances to the measurements points. By comparison, Rodger-Dogers was giving me lag times more appropriate for a test to Ankara, Turkey.<br>
><br>
> The tap test was interesting, but less helpful. I connected to <a href="tel:(909)%20390-0003" value="+19093900003" target="_blank">1-909-390-0003</a>, which is an instant-echo server, used to test voice telephones. If you connect to it and say something, it will echo it back to you. If you tap on your microphone, it's fairly easy to get an idea of how much delay there is.<br>
><br>
> Alas, with and without bufferbloat mitigation, it took about a second echo back the tap, so it's not the kind of instantly-obvious success test I'm searching for, to demonstrate the goodness of CAKE to my grandmother (;-))<br>
><br>
> --dave<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify<br>
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest<br>
> <a href="mailto:davecb@spamcop.net" target="_blank">davecb@spamcop.net</a> | -- Mark Twain<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public<br>
relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:dave@taht.net" target="_blank">dave@taht.net</a> <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: <a href="tel:(831)%20435-0729" value="+18314350729" target="_blank">1-831-435-0729</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>