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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/30/21 3:28 AM, David P. Reed
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com">
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Dave -</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">I've spent a fair amount of
time orbiting the FreeBSD community over the past few years.
It's not as sad as you might think.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">However, the networking
portion of FreeBSD community is quite differently organized
than it is in Linux.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
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<p>so... Ive spent 20+ years with freebsd, ive worked with and for
core team members, in both commercial and open source projects,
ive been paid most of my adult life to develop on the freebsd
platform.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">What tends to shape Linux
and FreeBSD, etc. are the money sources that flow into the
communities. Of course Linux is quite independently wealthy
now. The senior executives of the Linux Foundation are paid
nearly a million dollars a year, each. Which just indicates
that major corporations are seriously interested in
controlling the evolution of Linux (not the Gnu part, the part
that has Linus Torvalds at its center).</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">FreeBSD, in contrast, is a
loose alliance of what you might call "embedded hardware
vendors" like NetApp as an example. They value an open,
portable, efficient operating environment, but not for
servers, laptops or smartphones.</p>
</font></blockquote>
<p>FreeBSD is not "driven" by this so called alliance of "embedded
hardware vendors", while its true there are many large commercial
vendors in both the storage and networking, and streaming work
that use and contribute to FreeBSD as it is the basis for their
commercial product lines, they do not consist of the core driver
in development. FreeBSD really is a server grade operating system,
however it does also run on embedded platforms. and plenty of it.
It does also run on laptops quite well, though it is true
application support if not as global as it is in linux. So to this
point, FreeBSD is built for servers/networking/storage and the
like, and in no way is limited to "embedded hardware" it runs on
all the big iron out there, and is used daily by NetApp, Netflix,
Juniper, Extreme, even Dlink, and it is a primary OS for many
commercial storage providers.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">They overlap at the
intersection of network routing and storage platforms, where
Linux doesn't seem to fit well, except in the case of "home
routers".</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">At least that's my view. The
major controllers of architectural elements are not terribly
interested in FreeBSD's positive qualities. FreeBSD is not
very visible at Intel and ARM at all, interms of their product
planning. IBM has no "Power" FreeBSD.</p>
</font></blockquote>
<font size="2"><font face="arial">This is also not true.</font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Take for example,
bufferbloat as an issue that routing and switching hardware
ought to address. This is a serious weakness in the FreeBSD
community (where it should matter!) There's not been much
demand by the major corporate spenders on FreeBSD in fixing
bufferbloat. But then again, there's not been much visibility
regarding bufferbloat in the IETF, either. I'm not sure
Torvalds has ever even heard of it (and I suspect he would try
to argue it isn't a problem at all, given his tendency to not
think clearly about systems scale issues, so what's caused
Linux to even bother is the fringes in OpenWRT land and mesh
networking land, plus Jim Gettys).</p>
</font></blockquote>
<font size="2"><font face="arial">So your not aware of any
bufferbloat remedies for sqm, cake and pie in the FreeBSD tcp/ip
stack or work thats been done ?</font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Anyway, FreeBSD and FreeRTOS
and a few other very strong but small communities have
solutions that are far better for their actual needs than the
behemoth mess that Linux has become. And for those
communities, they work very well. They are disentangled from
Gnu, which is both a good and a bad thing depending on your
perspective.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">I just spent 9 months trying
to get a very tiny fix to the Linux kernel into the mainline
kernel. I actually gave up, because it seemed utterly
pointless, even though it was clearly a design error that I
was fixing, and I was trying to meet all the constraints on
patches. No one was fighting me, no one said it was wrong. I
found the problem in a personal research project where it was
a blocking bug, so I had to maintain it as an add-on private
patch (and I still do) that I needed to verify every release
of the Linux kernel. Why is this? Well, it shows how Linux
excludes ideas by the very bureaucracy of its management
structure. (and I'd suggest that the mess that "init" has
turned into in the OS, which the kernel actually requires in
order to be useful, called "systemd", is an example of how not
to modularize a portable OS kernel).</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">So FreeBSD, compared to
Linux, in some ways, is far more pleasant to deal with. The
community doesn't have rude and clueless and entitled members
like Torvalds and Alan Cox have been. It isn't being driven by
a consortium of F100 companies in a near-cartel.</p>
</font></blockquote>
<font size="2"><font face="arial">it is also far easier to deploy
and manage a FreeBSD system, I also find it more stable</font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">So there are pluses and
minuses. I suspect this is why many, many Linux developers
actually use macOS as their personal computer for development.
A paradox, given that macOS is completely proprietary.</p>
</font></blockquote>
<p>and of course we all know the heritage of MacOS... OpenStep,
Rhapsody, Darwin and FreeBSD <--- Yes... core components to
this day originated from FreeBSD.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1617049691.187521510@apps.rackspace.com"><font size="2"
face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">On Sunday, March 28, 2021
11:56am, "Dave Taht" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a> said:<br>
<br>
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<div id="SafeStyles1617047856">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">> I am sad about the
state of freebsd today, and of companies<br>
> contracting outside the authors of the code to get
crappy things<br>
> committed without review and testing.<br>
> <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lwn.net/Articles/850757/">https://lwn.net/Articles/850757/</a><br>
> <br>
> (long rant of mine in the comments).<br>
> <br>
> My hat is off to jason for sinking a frantic week into
vastly<br>
> improving that wireguard implementation, and I hope he
and his team<br>
> gets caught up on sleep now.<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> "For a successful technology, reality must take
precedence over public<br>
> relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" -
Richard Feynman<br>
> <br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave@taht.net">dave@taht.net</a> <Dave Täht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel:
1-831-435-0729<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel</a><br>
> </p>
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