<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""></div></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 11, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Bob McMahon <<a href="mailto:bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com" class="">bob.mcmahon@broadcom.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I agree that bufferbloat awareness is a good thing. The issue I have is the approach - ask consumers to "detect it" and replace a device with a new one, that may or may not, meet all the needs of the users.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class="">Better is that network engineers "design bloat out" from the beginning starting by properly sizing queues to service jitter, and for WiFi, to also enable aggregation techniques that minimize TXOP consumption.<br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>The Yes, but... part of my answer emphasizes awareness. How are the network engineers going to know it's worth the (minor) effort of creating properly-sized queues?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>There are two fronts to attack:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>- Manufacturers - This video is a start on getting their customers to use these responsiveness test tools and call the support lines.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>- Hardware (especially router) reviewers - It kills me that there is radio silence whenever I ask a reviewer if they have ever measured latency/responsiveness. (BTW: Has anyone heard from Ben Moskowitz from Consumer Reports? We had a very encouraging phone call about a year ago, and they were going to get back to us...)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Rich</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Bob</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 6:57 AM Rich Brown <<a href="mailto:richb.hanover@gmail.com" class="">richb.hanover@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 10, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Bob McMahon via Rpm <<a href="mailto:rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" class="">rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline" class="">> I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in that</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline" class="">> bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement in</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline" class="">> time units.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">Yes, but... I am going to praise this video, even as I encourage all the techies to be sure that they have the units correct.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I've been yammering about the evils of latency/excess queueing for 10 years on my blog, in forums, etc. I have not achieved anywhere near the notoriety of this video (almost a third of a million views).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am delighted that there's an engaging, mass-market Youtube video that makes the case that bufferbloat even exists. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Rich</div></div></blockquote></div>
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