<div dir="ltr">Al, I do agree with you from a consumer's perspective. There are those of us that are trying to get latency to the top of the heap, which has prerequisites of adequate bandwidth in both directions, but consumers aren't there and big providers are also very much not there. Still slinging 300x20 for reasons unknown unless it's to preserve CPU/Routing performance on aging hardware. All of the cross connects on the internet are full duplex so unless the access tech is limiting things... no good reason for the abysmal uploads in relation to downloads except to preserve underpowered hardware or to prevent customers for using it to push them to different service packages.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:18 PM MORTON JR., AL <<a href="mailto:acmorton@att.com">acmorton@att.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg14837823848893492">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Hi Dave, all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">I’m taking a slightly contrarian position here:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">When I read, “...that latency has now clearly overtaken broadband speed ...”,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">IMO, it’s only correct when we include the efforts to increase uplink speeds, and can therefore minimize the complexity
of low-layer uplink protocols. The continued suppression of uplink speeds in simplified marketing helps users overlook a critical factor in ISP service.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">In other words, all the terrestrial access “wants to be fiber”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Example: We stayed at my frugal brother-in-law’s home, where he had purchased the low-end rate offered by his fiber-based
ISP. It was 25Mbps, symmetrical rates. The bottom line is that this was a perfectly adequate service offer for zoom conferences and streaming video viewing. My measurements confirmed the rates, and that packet transfer had few defects.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">So for me, the 3 pillars are: sufficient capacity for *<b>all</b>* users involved, symmetrical uplink bit rate, and
the upstream access protocol should converge to zilch*, all leading to few impairments, including latency.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Al<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">* this is hard to achieve without the first two...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span> LibreQoS <<a href="mailto:libreqos-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">libreqos-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sebastian Moeller via LibreQoS<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 14, 2022 3:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Chacón <<a href="mailto:robert.chacon@jackrabbitwireless.com" target="_blank">robert.chacon@jackrabbitwireless.com</a>>; Robert Chacón via Bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; dan <<a href="mailto:dandenson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dandenson@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> libreqos <<a href="mailto:libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] gamebench quote<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span>Hi Robert,<br>
<br>
This is surprisingly rich in useful information and quite lean on marketing (given that this is marketing material having easily accessible links to source material is unusually open*). Nice.
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
*) Personally that approach would likely reel me in as customer, if I lived in your service area ;)<br>
<u></u><br>
<u></u><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On 14 November 2022 00:16:57 CET, "Robert Chacón via Bloat" <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Same here. We compete primarily against Charter Spectrum in the suburbs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Gamers and twitch streamers switch to us frequently due to the high upload bloat and jitter on Spectrum's network.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>We made a
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jackrabbitwireless.com/performance/__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsR8Jq6OA$" target="_blank">
page on our website</a> that tries to educate prospective clients about latency and bloat. I added the GameBench quote to it (thanks, Dave!)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Surprisingly, some people do read it and it helps ease their minds about "speed" when they're used to being bombarded with messaging about needing gigabit bandwidth.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>> I'm happy enough if TDS and Spectrum take their sweet time figuring out that latency is important :D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This! That and their inability to really do whole-home WiFi at scale helps WISPs offer a true performance answer to cable internet.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:56 PM dan via LibreQoS <<a href="mailto:libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This is definitely our focus. We preach low latency first and better uploads second, downloads are a distant third. We do have to advertise the faster speeds just to get into the
conversation because Spectrum for example and now TDS are all about 1G or 2G services. See my other email though, Spectrum's latency and jitter is garbage, TDS is actually worse than that to many services but I don't have a remote login to a TDS site at the
moment. I'm 15ms more from AWS Oregon on TDS than Spectrum, and I'm 20ms better than Spectrum on Lumen DIA. <br>
<br>
I'm happy enough if TDS and Spectrum take their sweet time figuring out that latency is important :D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:52 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <<a href="mailto:libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.gamebench.net/network-performance-and-gamer-experience-the-us-edition/__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsfy00yj4$" target="_blank">https://www.gamebench.net/network-performance-and-gamer-experience-the-us-edition/</a><br>
<br>
"Overall, the consistently reinforced takeaway is that latency has now<br>
clearly overtaken broadband speed as the focus area for network<br>
providers seeking to provide – and guarantee and commercially benefit<br>
from – optimum experience in both online multiplayer and cloud<br>
gaming."<br>
<br>
-- <br>
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsqn1PMDM$" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a><br>
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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