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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div>
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On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > <<a href="mailto:rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net">rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> entire network collapses.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> available airtime.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> more readily.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people commenting on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't get good<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> monitoring in place. No cake yet.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I think this is what you mean<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0</a><br></blockquote><br><br>A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that<br>you do not need the latest<br>technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the<br>late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,<br>the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers<br>like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and<br>reflashed.<br><br>One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+<br>ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,<br>especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image<br>for em, reflashed and redistributed them.<br><br>The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last<br>decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over<br>10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power<br>supply!<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"> > Did you get any good stats?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> > Run cake anywhere?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> uplink is much better.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> David Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> On Wed, 15 Mar<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> accounts for most access complaints.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> top sellers and top performers today.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> consumers setup.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> stakeholders of those networks.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <<a href="mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com">rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> per those chanspecs. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> systems, etc.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> engineering resources assigned.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>> Bob<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>> <<a href="mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com">rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>>> to halt.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>>> room.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >>> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> Bloat mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> <a href="mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net">Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> Rpm mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> <a href="mailto:Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net">Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> >> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ><br></blockquote><br><br><br>-- <br>Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: <a href="https://www.understandinglatency.com/">https://www.understandinglatency.com/</a><br>Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
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</div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially poorly made. Ie, engineered for our disposable market. Lots of netgear products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that, and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed them. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give them longer life. To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these items from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.<br clear="all"><div></div></div><div><br></div></div></body></html>