<div dir="ltr">Hello Sebastian,<div><br></div><div>So you have shared that "L$S bible" :-) with the bloat list and I do believe that even people at NN list should read it: <a href="https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/courses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf">https://pbg.cs.illinois.edu/courses/cs598fa09/readings/b07.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>Heck, everyone in the field should read it. Food for thought, certainly.</div><div><br></div><div><b>Btw, <a href="https://www.understandinglatency.com">https://www.understandinglatency.com</a> today was great, hope more of you join us tomorrow</b>. Jason will be giving an update on "L4S Field Trial Experiences", also Stuart "It's latency, stupid!" of Apple will be speaking and I'm looking forward to my compatriot, Marek Pesta, with CDN77, adding more knowledge to the CDN field.</div><div><br><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Skype: casioa5302ca<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 4:04 PM Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Frantisek,<br>
<br>
still keeping NNagain off-list, no need to infect yet another list with my L4S aversion ;)<br>
<br>
> On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:18, Frantisek Borsik <<a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> …and I’m adding NN again, because:<br>
> <br>
> No matter which evil end game is actually the one, it will create a quite a havoc.<br>
<br>
Not so sure about that, my expectancy is mostly that L4S is going to fizzle out simply because it over-promised and under-delivers. And fizzling out does not make impressive havoc...<br>
<br>
> Seeing, for example Netflix, participating in L4S trail (they said it was for their cloud gaming,<br>
<br>
But if we look at the DualQ from the outside we see a priority scheduler with little to no organic bulk traffic (yet?) so using this for any latency sensitive traffic is tempting. The bigger question for me is, does Netflix' cloud gaming traffic actually respond gracefully to CE marks as expected for an L5S flow, or if it is using NQB instead is it following the eligibility recommendations for NQB traffic? That is, is this traffic playing along the rules or not? (One of the problems with L4S is that it defines a set of requirements for traffic and then fails to enforce/police these requirements, making them pretty irrelevant, but I digress).<br>
<br>
<br>
> while at IETF 118) is in my mind the same like seeing a capitalist, an entrepreneur selling a rope to a bloodthirsty communist that want to create a noose to hang him on it :-) but if one don’t see/hear evil…there is no hope.<br>
<br>
I see less diabolic evil in L4S and more ideologically* driven mediocrity...<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
*) Hard to read <a href="https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=6e7364c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=6e7364c67c13fa991c63292b281fac61dfcf40e0</a> "Flow Rate Fairness: Dismantling a Religion" as anything but ideologically driven...<br>
<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> All the best,<br>
> <br>
> Frank<br>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><br>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <br>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<br>
> Skype: casioa5302ca<br>
> <a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de" target="_blank">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi Frantisek,<br>
> <br>
> steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have NN ramifications.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > Top story on HN:<br>
> > <br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744</a><br>
> > <br>
> > My pick for top comment:<br>
> > <br>
> > <image_6487327.JPG><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > A possible L4S end game? 😁 <br>
> <br>
> Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that content providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-load of L4S problems).<br>
> <br>
> Regards<br>
> Sebastian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick... <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > All the best,<br>
> > <br>
> > Frank<br>
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<br>
> > <br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><br>
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <br>
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<br>
> > Skype: casioa5302ca<br>
> > <a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Bob<br>
> > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to<br>
> > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all<br>
> > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends<br>
> > badly.<br>
> > <br>
> > Best regards,<br>
> > Sauli<br>
> > <br>
> > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really<br>
> > - it’s an article in The Verge :-)<br>
> > <br>
> > But yeah. Here’s something they should address:<br>
> > <br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings</a><br>
> > <br>
> > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S<br>
> > problem:<br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > All the best,<br>
> > <br>
> > Frank<br>
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<br>
> > <br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><br>
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714<br>
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<br>
> > Skype: casioa5302ca<br>
> > <a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <<br>
> > <a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > About L4S<br>
> > <br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth</a><br>
> > <br>
> > It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to<br>
> > explain bytes vs bits.<br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks,<br>
> > --MM--<br>
> > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force<br>
> > to apply it to others.<br>
> > <br>
> > Matt Mathis (Email is best)<br>
> > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Nnagain mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Nnagain mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Nnagain mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Nnagain mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> > h++ps://<a href="http://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>