<div dir="auto">Sharing the picture and link directly (because Gmail let me to do it):</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div><img src="cid:18f9f7b5552ed7548511" style="max-width: 100%;"></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><a href="https://camo.githubusercontent.com/bbbcbf00baa8455073b8a9676d0a6d46a7aee25c7e456a44ad51b64abb30db5a/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667">https://camo.githubusercontent.com/bbbcbf00baa8455073b8a9676d0a6d46a7aee25c7e456a44ad51b64abb30db5a/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667</a></div><br clear="all"><br clear="all"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">All the best,<br><br>Frank<br>Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<br><br><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><br>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <br>iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<br>Skype: casioa5302ca<br><a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a><br></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 22 May 2024 at 7:40 AM, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div style="line-break:after-white-space">Dear All,<div><br></div><div>since my attached image did not seem to make it to the list (thanks Frantisek for letting me know) here a link to the image:</div><div><a>h++ps</a><a>://camo.githubusercontent.com/bbbcbf00baa8455073b8a9676d0a6d46a7aee25c7e456a44ad51b64abb30db5a/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667</a><div>Due my mail agents outgoing SPAM marking I need to replace the 't' in the URL with + signs....</div><div><br></div><div>The point remains, TCP Prague does not gracefully compete with Cubic in a FIFO bottleneck, and given that many bottlenecks are still FIFOs that does not bode well for TCP Prague. It is unclear whether that is simply a bug/misfeature in Prague or whether that is a consequence of L4S signalling. IMHO the IETF has done the internet a disservice to ratify the L4S RFC before making sure that everything works as expected.</div><div><br></div><div>The whole L4S ratification process disillusioned me about the IETF in general and TSVWG specifically. I understand and accept that horse-trading is unavoidable when groups of humans cooperate, but in the IETF the gap between the 'no politics' motto and the amount of horse-trading that actually happens is breathtaking...</div><div>Exemplified by the fact that nobody seems to bother that chairs and ADs are not even trying to be impartial, but pretend they can separate themselves out into a 'chair' and a 'non-chair' persona... And the fact that WG members see no harm in having private only strategy discussions with chairs and ADs. I am not saying that these things are necessarily below the board, but there clearly is plenty of opportunity.</div><div>But enough of that.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>My </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="line-break:after-white-space"><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><br><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Sebastian Moeller via Bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Re: [Bloat] "Very interesting L4S presentation from Nokia Bell Labs on tap for RIPE 88 in Krakow this week! "</b><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">21. May 2024 at 19:32:47 CEST<br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">"Livingood, Jason" <<a href="mailto:jason_livingood@comcast.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">jason_livingood@comcast.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Jonathan Morton <<a href="mailto:chromatix99@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">chromatix99@gmail.com</a>>, bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de" target="_blank" style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">moeller0@gmx.de</a>><br></span></div><br><div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Hi Jason,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">On 21. May 2024, at 19:13, Livingood, Jason via Bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:Helvetica">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>On 5/21/24, 12:19, "Bloat on behalf of Jonathan Morton via Bloat wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica">Notice in particular that the only *performance* comparisons they make are between L4S and no AQM at all, not between L4S and conventional AQM - even though they now mention that the latter *exists*.<br></blockquote><br>I cannot speak to the Nokia deck. But in our field trials we have certainly compared single queue AQM to L4S, and L4S flows perform better.<span style="font-family:Helvetica"> </span><br><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica">There's also no mention whatsoever of what happens when L4S traffic meets a conventional AQM.<br></blockquote><br>We also tested this and all is well; the performance of classic queue with AQM is fine.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">[SM] I think you are thinking of a different case than Jonathan, not classic traffic in the C-queue, but L4S traffic (ECT(1)) that by chance is not hiting abottleneck employing DualQ but the traditional FIFO...</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">This is the case where at least TCP Prague just folds it, gives up and goes home...</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Here is Pete's data showing that, the middle two bars show what happens when the bottleneck is not treating TCP Prague to the expected signalling...</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div style="line-break:after-white-space"><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">That is not really fit for use over the open internet...</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Regards</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"> </span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Sebastian</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br>Jason<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bloat mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:Helvetica">Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat" target="_blank" style="font-family:Helvetica">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a><br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Bloat mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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