<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Dear All,<div><br></div><div>since my attached image did not seem to make it to the list (thanks Frantisek for letting me know) here a link to the image:</div><div><a href="hps://camo.githubusercontent.com/8b4e94662ae0758195d4e6b6a82d81897c46c4f254f400b721f015081475b3a8/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f31306d735f3136306d732e737667">h++ps</a><a href="://camo.githubusercontent.com/bbbcbf00baa8455073b8a9676d0a6d46a7aee25c7e456a44ad51b64abb30db5a/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667">://camo.githubusercontent.com/bbbcbf00baa8455073b8a9676d0a6d46a7aee25c7e456a44ad51b64abb30db5a/687474703a2f2f7363652e646e736d67722e6e65742f726573756c74732f6c34732d323032302d31312d3131543132303030302d66696e616c2f73312d6368617274732f727474666169725f63635f71646973635f38306d735f38306d732e737667</a><div>Due my mail agents outgoing SPAM marking I need to replace the 't' in the URL with + signs....</div><div><br></div><div>The point remains, TCP Prague does not gracefully compete with Cubic in a FIFO bottleneck, and given that many bottlenecks are still FIFOs that does not bode well for TCP Prague. It is unclear whether that is simply a bug/misfeature in Prague or whether that is a consequence of L4S signalling. IMHO the IETF has done the internet a disservice to ratify the L4S RFC before making sure that everything works as expected.</div><div><br></div><div>The whole L4S ratification process disillusioned me about the IETF in general and TSVWG specifically. I understand and accept that horse-trading is unavoidable when groups of humans cooperate, but in the IETF the gap between the 'no politics' motto and the amount of horse-trading that actually happens is breathtaking...</div><div>Exemplified by the fact that nobody seems to bother that chairs and ADs are not even trying to be impartial, but pretend they can separate themselves out into a 'chair' and a 'non-chair' persona... And the fact that WG members see no harm in having private only strategy discussions with chairs and ADs. I am not saying that these things are necessarily below the board, but there clearly is plenty of opportunity.</div><div>But enough of that.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>My </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Sebastian Moeller via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><b>Re: [Bloat] "Very interesting L4S presentation from Nokia Bell Labs on tap for RIPE 88 in Krakow this week! "</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">21. May 2024 at 19:32:47 CEST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Livingood, Jason" <jason_livingood@comcast.com><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de><br></span></div><br><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Hi Jason,</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">On 21. May 2024, at 19:13, Livingood, Jason via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<br><br>On 5/21/24, 12:19, "Bloat on behalf of Jonathan Morton via Bloat wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Notice in particular that the only *performance* comparisons they make are between L4S and no AQM at all, not between L4S and conventional AQM - even though they now mention that the latter *exists*.<br></blockquote><br>I cannot speak to the Nokia deck. But in our field trials we have certainly compared single queue AQM to L4S, and L4S flows perform better.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br><blockquote type="cite">There's also no mention whatsoever of what happens when L4S traffic meets a conventional AQM.<br></blockquote><br>We also tested this and all is well; the performance of classic queue with AQM is fine.<br></blockquote><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">[SM] I think you are thinking of a different case than Jonathan, not classic traffic in the C-queue, but L4S traffic (ECT(1)) that by chance is not hiting abottleneck employing DualQ but the traditional FIFO...</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">This is the case where at least TCP Prague just folds it, gives up and goes home...</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Here is Pete's data showing that, the middle two bars show what happens when the bottleneck is not treating TCP Prague to the expected signalling...</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>