# [Cake] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board

David P. Reed dpreed at deepplum.com
Thu Jul 8 15:38:00 EDT 2021

```I will tell you flat out that the arrival time distribution assumption made by Little's Lemma that allows "estimation of queue depth" is totally unreasonable on ANY Internet in practice.

The assumption is a Poisson Arrival Process. In reality, traffic arrivals in real internet applications are extremely far from Poisson, and, of course, using TCP windowing, become highly intercorrelated with crossing traffic that shares the same queue.

So, as I've tried to tell many, many net-heads (people who ignore applications layer behavior, like the people that think latency doesn't matter to end users, only throughput), end-to-end packet arrival times on a practical network are incredibly far from Poisson - and they are more like fractal probability distributions, very irregular at all scales of time.

So, the idea that iperf can estimate queue depth by Little's Lemma by just measuring saturation of capacity of a path is bogus.The less Poisson, the worse the estimate gets, by a huge factor.

Where does the Poisson assumption come from?  Well, like many theorems, it is the simplest tractable closed form solution - it creates a simplified view, by being a "single-parameter" distribution (the parameter is called lambda for a Poisson distribution).  And the analysis of a simple queue with poisson arrival distribution and a static, fixed service time is the first interesting Queueing Theory example in most textbooks. It is suggestive of an interesting phenomenon, but it does NOT characterize any real system.

It's the queueing theory equivalent of "First, we assume a spherical cow...". in doing an example in a freshman physics class.

Unfortunately, most networking engineers understand neither queuing theory nor application networking usage in interactive applications. Which makes them arrogant. They assume all distributions are poisson!

On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 9:46am, "Ben Greear" <greearb at candelatech.com> said:

> Hello,
>
> I am interested to hear wish lists for network testing features. We make test
> equipment, supporting lots
> of wifi stations and a distributed architecture, with built-in udp, tcp, ipv6,
> http, ... protocols,
> and open to creating/improving some of our automated tests.
>
> I know Dave has some test scripts already, so I'm not necessarily looking to
> reimplement that,
> but more fishing for other/new ideas.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On 7/2/21 4:28 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
> > I think we need the language of math here. It seems like the network
> power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and Jaffe in the late 70s, is something
> useful.
> > Effective end/end queue depths per Little's law also seems useful. Both are
> available in iperf 2 from a test perspective. Repurposing test techniques to
> actual
> > traffic could be useful. Hence the question around what exact telemetry
> is useful to apps making socket write() and read() calls.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com
> <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to encourage folk to
> > both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and Deming's
> > work on "total quality management".
> >
> > My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue" is aiming
> > for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot of
> > fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing delay, but
> > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user really needs
> > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents.
> >
> > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to "zen...",
> > lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer hits an
> > insoluble problem.
> > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/
> <https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpreed at deepplum.com
> <mailto:dpreed at deepplum.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference  are willing to
> consider that quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at
> the
> > physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality"
> suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the hardware
> or
> > the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future,
> and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will
> likely fall
> > into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some
> imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be what
> users
> > actually will do given the chance.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original
> Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize
> ASR33
> > logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote
> login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing
> systems, and
> > "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then trying to
> exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, because someone
> > thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided"
> by "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system
> design".
> > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want
> to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all times,
> > now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you don't
> bother to include current and future users talking about what they might expect
> to
> > experience that they don't experience.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved
> "network experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as
> quality,
> > so applications could avoid having to solve such issues.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve"
> such issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses to
> > *cooperate* in some way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them,
> and why diffserv cannot work.
> > >
> > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of
> diffserv attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but
> never, ever
> > explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the IP
> layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of the
> > so-called end-to-end principle).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing
> the underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. Quality
> can
> > be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network provides
> some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end applications to
> > affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly getting
> "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on with the other
> > end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your
> time.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht"
> <dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>> said:
> > >
> > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally,
> we can
> > > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless,
> blind
> > > > repetitions of speedtest.
> > > >
> > > > For complete details, please see:
> > > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/
> <https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/>
> > > >
> > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE
> (Anywhere On Earth)
> > > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
> > > >
> > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over
> three days:
> > > >
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> > > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
> > > >
> > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira
> > > >
> > > > The Program Committee members:
> > > >
> > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire,
> Sam
> > > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen,
> Geoff
> > > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja
> Kuehlewind,
> > > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen
> Nichols,
> > > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.
> > > >
> > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org
> <mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org>.
> > > >
> > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source
> community and
> > > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations
> and
> > > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect
> experience
> > > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The
> organizers
> > > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are
> unlikely to be
> > > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories
> of
> > > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies,
> products, or
> > > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not
> focus
> > > > on specific protocol solutions.
> > > >
> > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to
> attend
> > > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may
> take the
> > > > form of an Internet-Draft.
> > > >
> > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published
> on the
> > > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite
> based on
> > > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according
> to
> > > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee
> will
> > > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster
> discussion
> > > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
> > > >
> > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual
> sessions
> > > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be
> published
> > > > afterwards.
> > > >
> > > > Overview:
> > > >
> > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of
> progress
> > > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole
> measure of
> > > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus,
> people
> > > > don’t consider questions such as:
> > > >
> > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> > > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?
> > > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?
> > > > What services can be run by clients of the network?
> > > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and
> are there firewalls?
> > > > What security mechanisms are available for local services,
> such as DNS?
> > > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity
> and
> > > > authenticity of user communications guarded?
> > > >
> > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend
> on
> > > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties,
> including to
> > > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure
> of the
> > > > right metrics will allow service providers and network
> operators to
> > > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience
> most and at
> > > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service
> that will
> > > > give them the best experience."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Latest Podcast:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
> <mailto:Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel>
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Latest Podcast:
> >
> > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> > Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net
> <mailto:Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast>
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
> --
> Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com>
> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
>
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