<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div>(sent initially to incorrect address)<br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Fred Stratton <<a href="mailto:fredstratton@imap.cc">fredstratton@imap.cc</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [Cerowrt-devel] cerowrt-3.10.2-1 dev release + owamp</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">5 August 2013 11:45:33 BST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>><br></span></div><br><div><br>On 5 Aug 2013, at 10:44, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi Fred,<br><br><br>On Aug 4, 2013, at 15:03 , Fred Stratton <<a href="mailto:fredstratton@imap.cc">fredstratton@imap.cc</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>On 3 Aug 2013, at 21:53, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi Fread,<br></blockquote></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sorry for the typo...<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br><br>On Aug 3, 2013, at 12:36 , Fred Stratton <<a href="mailto:fredstratton@imap.cc">fredstratton@imap.cc</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I cannot currently access the gateway device. <br><br>AFAIK, Cerowrt does not allow setting up a masquerade, and it is physically difficult to access. I wish I could have a masquerade. The device has a fixed IP address of 192.168.1.254.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Interestingly, I can access my DSL-router on <a href="https://192.168.2.1">https://192.168.2.1</a> through cerowrt without any required configuration or firewall changes (and that also worked with 102.168.100.1 to the cable modem I used before). Have you recently tried this again? I do not run the required PPPOE client on cerowrt, but on the DSL-router.<br></blockquote><br>You are using 2 routers in series. I have disabled all routing functions on the 2wire. It is transparent to the network.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Which is exactly the situation I faced with the cable modem before; my cerowrt-router was provisioned with an IP address through the bridged cable-modem via DHCP, but I still could access the modem's 192.168.100.1 with out any configuration required. I know there is some openwork information (<a href="http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/access.modem.through.nat">http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/access.modem.through.nat</a>) that makes it look like one needs to do more involved fiddling with the firewall, but that turned out not to be required with cerowrt. I do not know how that works if one runs a pppoe client on cerowrt though and I left cerowrt's ip address assignment in place. (My hunch is that since cerowrt leaves the typical 192.168.N.N ranges alone the whole issue gets reduced to a simple routing issue… and since Dave takes care that cero works well as secondary (test) router in a typical home situation, I guess routing 192.168.N.N is well with in cerowrt's scope)<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But, I guess you tried that already and it still does not work. Would be interesting to learn why…<br></blockquote><br>The difference is that you have the ISP gateway as a primary device issuing a DHCP address to the cerowrt secondary router. The 2 devices are then obviously on the same ipv4 subnet.<br><br>I use the 2700 transparently. DHCP is turned off. If I turn it on, I have to use the device in DMZ mode with its firewall on, which I do not want to do.<br><br>Initially, I used the 2700 with the tomatoUSB router attached to that, and then a router running openWRT. This setup allowed access to the 2700, through a masquerade in tomatoUSB. <br><br>Although ipv6 addresses were propagated throughout the network by Barrier Breaker, ipv6 did not work, probably because of the way radvd works in tomato.<br><br>I have never used the cerowrt as a secondary device because of this.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>Openwrt has a masquerade function, which has been removed. There is no doubt a good reason for this.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Have you tried to assign an alias to the WAN interface in the same subnet as the modem's IP? Might do the trick…<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>The target snr is set high, so the device does not retrain for months, so the line speed remains constant. The ISP I use has been sold by Telefonica to Sky, who use a fixed 7.5 target snr, so this stability may go. I may change ISPs to overcome this.<br><br>The device is a bridged 2wire 2700, which provides a frequency graph. This looked normal.<br><br>When I used a Broadcom based router, and TomatoUSB -shibby - I could access the device and run RouterStats in a wine bottle. The interference occurs at 0700 and 0200 every day. I have had the street lights serviced. Chain saws are a problem. Aldi or Lidl sell cheap chain saws which are not well suppressed electrically and cause random interference.<br><br>I use a VDSL grade NTE<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Ah, in Germany XDSL capable modems (i.e. VDSL and ADSL) have a bad reputation for ADSL lines (think Jack of all trades, master of none) no idea whether that is deserved though…<br></blockquote><br>I am referring to the network termination wall plate, which contains rf chokes which function like the coil craft device.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, so do DSL modems, but not all chokes are of equal quality… that said I am quite impressed that you have common mode chokes in the termination equipment. In Germany all we get is a dumb frequency splitter, and with all IP telephony roll-out not even that anymore :)<br></blockquote><br>Te UK phone socket is mounted on a standard box that is used for electrical sockets and switches in house walls. It has 2 halves - a backplate, installed by the phone company and attached to the line, and a front plate, which the end user can change. A number are available containing different chokes. There is a phone socket - a UK phone socket, bigger than RJ-11, and an RJ-45 socket for internet equipment.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite">, with large line chokes, shielded cables. and ferrite rings on the input phone line.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I guess this is for common mode rejection? When I had issues with a borderline del link in the past the coil craft TRF-r11 (<a href="http://www.coilcraft.com/pdf_viewer/showpdf.cfm?f=pdf_store:modjack.pdf">http://www.coilcraft.com/pdf_viewer/showpdf.cfm?f=pdf_store:modjack.pdf</a>) worked well for me. Then again ideally one would include the common mode chokes to all lines going into the modem (including ethernet and power).<br><br><blockquote type="cite">All phones are DECT.<br><br>The problem with a liberal Telecoms market is that there is only one Wholesale provider, OpenReach. They will not investigate anything other than voice line faults. The phone lines and cabinets are over 60 years old.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, sure but that is not going to change any time soon (as much as I think everybody should be connected by optic fiber). Admittedly I have soft spot in my heart for keeping infrastructure operating well past beyond its prime :) <br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>I am sure the 2700 is part of the problem. However other choices, like a Thomson TG585v7, are associated with similar uplink delays.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>How do you measure the uplink delay? Oh I just remembered you had issues with getting netsurf 2.6 to work on ubuntu 12.4? Because Toke (<a href="https://github.com/tohojo/netperf-wrapper">https://github.com/tohojo/netperf-wrapper</a>) has prepared nice packages of netsur-wrapper for ubuntu that include netsurf, so maybe you could try netsurf-wrapper to test your latencies. (One caveat, as Dave noticed in ubuntu 12.4 the saved plots from netsurf-wrapper suffer from a suboptimal python matplotlib)<br><br><blockquote type="cite">and does not hold the line as well. despite its Broadcom SoC - the DSLAM is an Ericsson, which returns BRCM.<br><br>I mention all this on list not just to answer your question, but to describe a fairly typical situation. The majority of users obtain internet service over a land line., these days via ASDL2+. I have a liberal telecoms market, can swap around the equipment II have attached to a typical phone line perfectly legally to optimise the signal I receive. Boxes like the 2wire and Thomson TG585v7 are what ISPs provide. <br>Cerowrt should at some point allow the ADSL user to surf the web and download at the same time. <br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I know that this is not going to help you, but my experience is that once I hooked up my cerowrt (wndr3700) to one of the internal ethernet ports of my ISP supplied (and remotely administered) DSL-router-modem-combo and switched all my machines to connect to cero networks, the internet got a whole lot more useable again immediately. Streaming and downloading and browsing the web got possible again once the ISP's router was relieved of being the bottleneck :)<br></blockquote><br>I have, in effect, done this.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Ah, and that did not improve "interactivity"? That is a bit sad, and I would like to help, but it seems I am at the end of my wits.<br></blockquote><br>You have helped considerably, providing a data point of what does work.<br><br>I may try different qdiscs with stab<br><br>I do not want to use cable, which is expensive. The DOCSIS box - a custom Netgear device - has a poor reputation.<br><br>I do not want to use fibre, again, because when it comes here, it will be supplied by BT/, and is traffic shaped and capped. The BT web site has 35 pages of price increases for this year.<br><br>I will continue with ADSL2+<br><blockquote type="cite"><br>Best<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sebastian<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br>best regards<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sebastian<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br>On 3 Aug 2013, at 10:38, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi Fred,<br><br><br>On Aug 1, 2013, at 00:35 , Fred Stratton <<a href="mailto:fredstratton@imap.cc">fredstratton@imap.cc</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>On 31 Jul 2013, at 23:14, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi Fred,<br><br>thanks a lot.<br><br><br>On Jul 31, 2013, at 23:37 , Fred Stratton <<a href="mailto:fredstratton@imap.cc">fredstratton@imap.cc</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">tc -s -d class show dev ge00<br><br>class htb 1:10 parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate 700000bit ceil 700000bit burst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 0 <br>Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped 4733, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>lended: 115190 borrowed: 0 giants: 0<br>tokens: 263560 ctokens: 263560<br><br>class htb 1:1 root rate 700000bit ceil 700000bit burst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1599b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 7 <br>Sent 15809014 bytes 115190 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>rate 3616bit 3pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>lended: 0 borrowed: 0 giants: 0<br>tokens: 263560 ctokens: 263560<br><br>class fq_codel 110:1b8 parent 110: <br>(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>deficit 84 count 0 lastcount 0 delay 10us<br><br><br><br>tc -s -d class show dev ifb0<br>class htb 1:10 parent 1:1 leaf 110: prio 0 quantum 1500 rate 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit burst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 0 <br>Sent 192992612 bytes 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>rate 17096bit 4pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>lended: 168503 borrowed: 0 giants: 0<br>tokens: 27454 ctokens: 27454<br><br>class htb 1:1 root rate 7000Kbit ceil 7000Kbit burst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b cburst 1598b/1 mpu 0b overhead 0b level 7 <br>Sent 192992612 bytes 168503 pkt (dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>rate 17096bit 4pps backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>lended: 0 borrowed: 0 giants: 0<br>tokens: 27454 ctokens: 27454<br><br>class fq_codel 110:cc parent 110: <br>(dropped 10, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>deficit -198 count 1 lastcount 1 ldelay 2.3ms<br>class fq_codel 110:1d9 parent 110: <br>(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>deficit 226 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay 2us<br>class fq_codel 110:1de parent 110: <br>(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>deficit 238 count 0 lastcount 0 ldelay 10us<br>class fq_codel 110:345 parent 110: <br>(dropped 0, overlimits 0 requeues 0) <br>backlog 0b 0p requeues 0 <br>deficit 226 count 0 lastcount 0 delay 9us<br><br>I changed the hard coded values in /usr/lib/aqm/functions.sh to arbitrary values, rebooted and obtained the same results. Both reflect the 7000kbit/s down and 700kbit/s up I entered in the window.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>What is the line rate as read out from the del modem or specified in your contract?<br></blockquote><br><a href="http://Speedtest.net">Speedtest.net</a> shows the rate as circa 8.7 megabits/s down, 1 megabit/s up. Line has radio frequency interference from unidentified sources..<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So it looks like specify a generous reserve for the shaper. Can you log into your modem and get the current line rates? The rf interference, is it constant (if you can get nice SNR per sub carrier or even ust bit loading per frequency plots) that is does it only affect the same frequencies or does it change? (I ask, because temporary interference might reduce the effective line rate, potentially moving the buffer back into the del modem)<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Target snr upped to 12 deciBel. Line can sustain 10 megabits/s with repeated loss of <a href="http://sync.at">sync.at</a> lower snr. Contract is for 'up to 20megabits/s'. <br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So ADSL2+ as you even mentioned it before.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">850 metres from exchange. Line length circa 1.2km.<br></blockquote><br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite">I ticked the adsl box. Altering the value in functions.sh and unticking the box, with reboot, produced the same outcome.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This nicely shows I screwed up my testing (and or forgot to reboot between changes). Or I did try too high a data rate (initially 97% of the raw link rate)<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><br>traceroute <a href="http://google.com">google.com</a><br>traceroute: Warning: <a href="http://google.com">google.com</a> has multiple addresses; using 173.194.41.128<br>traceroute to <a href="http://google.com">google.com</a> (173.194.41.128), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets<br>1 172.30.42.1 (172.30.42.1) 0.631 ms 0.323 ms 0.249 ms<br>2 * * *<br>3 10.1.3.234 (10.1.3.234) 22.596 ms 21.241 ms 22.392 ms<br>4 * 10.1.3.214 (10.1.3.214) 27.018 ms 26.703 ms<br>5 10.1.4.249 (10.1.4.249) 29.682 ms 28.923 ms 27.479 ms<br>6 * * *<br>7 * 209.85.252.186 (209.85.252.186) 30.379 ms *<br>8 72.14.238.55 (72.14.238.55) 25.745 ms 25.345 ms 25.594 ms<br>9 <a href="http://lhr08s03-in-f0.1e100.net">lhr08s03-in-f0.1e100.net</a> (173.194.41.128) 27.566 ms 27.390 ms 27.663 ms<br><br>mtr shows packet losses at hops 2-5 <br>10.1.3.* are Internet Watch Foundation.<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This looks pretty reasonable for an adsl link (could be way worse with higher interleaving)<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br>Netalyzr was used. I appreciate it is an imperfect metric.<br></blockquote></blockquote><br>OK. Like the ping train idea. Cannot get netperf 2.6.0 to build on Ubuntu 12.04<br></blockquote><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So I typically run a 1000 count ping against the nearest host that is on the other side of the DSL link that also gives consistent ping RTTs without load. Then I start my test loads like saturating the upload with a long runnig TCP transfer and opening 99 media heavy tabs in a browser (I really should try the chrome benchmark that Dave is using). And the I simply look through the ping statistic results, typically I look at the maximum, and at the standard deviation to get a handle on how tight the shaper held latency under control. (If I should get netperf-wrapper to work under Macosx I will try to use that for testing, but it does not even install, and if I get past that hurdle I will have to adjust for the differences between Gnu ping and BSD ping).<br><br><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Best Regards<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sebastian<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well, I ran into this issue before. In short netalyzr's worst case delay numbers do not seem to reflect how an fq_codelled connection feels. <br>Netalyzr uses an unresponsive UDP probe to force the bottleneck router's buffers to fill up; with unresponsiveness being a property no sane flow over the intent should exhibit. Codel/fq_codel is tailored for responsive flows and will only gradually increase its drop frequency so responsive TCP flows will be controlled gently and keep link utilization high. Given enough time codel will also rein in an unresponsive flows. But netalyzr's probe duration is too short for that to be happening during netalyzr's runtime.<br>Fq_codel in my experience does a decent job at keeping interactivity high even with competing traffic like netalyzr (so turn a ping train against say 10.1.3.234 while netalyzr runs or try netperf-wrapper in addition). <br>So netalyzr really probes the worst case buffer depth against basically a "denial of service" type of load; I am not fully sure what the expectancy on the disc here should be.<br><br><br>best<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sebastian<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br><br><br><br><br>On 31 Jul 2013, at 21:38, Sebastian Moeller <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">tc -s -d class show dev ge00<br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>