<html><head></head><body>I'll answer this way... The endpoints can use information to slow down as early as possible. That's the whole point of control loop tuning. The fundamental resonance of a control loop depends on its speed of draining and filling the storage element.<br>
<br>
So you want to sample and deliver ASAP two things in a network that is trying to stay in a ballistic state. One is the aggregate instantaneous controlled (by TCP receiver windows and individual application demand) input rate affecting each switch and the other is the buffered amount on a path.<br>
<br>
The two factors are not the same, and buffered amount wants to be minimized. For max throughput you need only be in ballistic-maximum buffering. Which is the phase when the bottleneck buffers always have a packet to send but no more (analogous to double buffering).<br>
<br>
This is a phase in phase space. There can be waves of buffer expansion traveling in the medium at the critical phase boundary, but you don't want to allow a phase transition to backlogged because then the buffers begin to back up and the time to drain adds to the time to recover from sustained descent into colllapse.<br>
<br>
All flow receivers ideally would be receiving the two sampled measures.<br>
<br>
You are right that no action can be taken at a switch... but flow receivers can use earlier sampled measures to decide to take action more quickly to prevent incipient buffer growth.<br>
<br>
Though the situation is different in a highway network, the phase when a jam has developed at an intersection is similar. You want a highway system to operate at the point where no sustained jams exist.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On May 15, 2014, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class="k10mail">Well, if the link isn't congested, why do you need to do anything to the traffic <br />other than forward it? You have no way of knowing what paths the traffic is <br />going to follow once it hits the next router, so you don't know which streams <br />are independent of each other.<br /><br />Now, if you are saying that fq_codel can be enhanced to gather stats even when <br />there is no congestion so that it has a better idea of what to do once <br />congestion starts, then you may have a point.<br /><br />but fq_codel is very happy to run and do basically nothing if there is no <br />congestion. It doesn't delay things to create a buffer.<br /><br />David Lang<br /><br />On Thu, 15 May 2014, David P. Reed wrote:<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">Both you and Dave Taft misunderstood my idea about standing queues not being the right way to encode congestion in
switches. I do not say there would be no buffers for jitter. Nor do I call for admission control. I just suggest that instead of deriving congestion from backlog measures (requiring that there be backlogs created and sustained) one can derive congestion measures without sustainng a backlog...<br /><br />The result is ballistic flows, if you will. Analogous to ballistic electrons in materials.<br /><br />On May 15, 2014, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">We are talking about different things then.<br /><br />The "fast lane" I'm talking about is where ISPs want companies to pay<br />them for<br />bandwidth (in addition to the companies paying their own ISP for<br />bandwidth and<br />in addition to their users paying them for bandwidth)<br /><br />As for your contention that an ideal Internet will have a buffer size<br />of <1<br />packet. That wil
l work,
but that will not fully utilize the network,<br />because<br />there will be jitter in the senders and some packet generation will be<br />delayed,<br />leaving the network with nothing to send in that timeslot.<br /><br />If the network is not fully utilized, then fq_codel isn't needed, just<br />send<br />packets as they arrive. It's only as a particular link approaches full<br />utilization that queues will build up and deciding what to do becomes<br />significant (and fq_codel and similar will matter)<br /><br />As for your thought of having an end-to-end feedback loop, the problem<br />with that<br />is that it will only work if the path between them is stable and not<br />interfered<br />with by other flows. In the Internet as we have it today, neither are<br />true. The<br />packets for your connection may travel over different paths, and<br />congestion<br />happens on a link-by-link basis with the combined packets of many<br />connections,<br />not end-to-end based o
n a
single connection.<br /><br />David Lang<br /><br />On Thu, 15 May 2014, dpreed@reed.com wrote:<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">I don't think that at all. I suspect you know that. But if I confused<br /></blockquote>you, let<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">me assure you that my view of the proper operating point of the<br /></blockquote>Internet as a<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">whole is that the expected buffer queue on any switch anywhere in the<br /></blockquote>Internet<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">is < 1 datagram.<br /><br />fq_codel is a good start, but it still requires letting buffer<br
/></blockquote>queueing<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">increase. However, mathematically, one need not have the queues<br /></blockquote>build up to<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">sustain the control loop that fq_codel creates.<br /><br />I conjecture that one can create an equally effective congestion<br /></blockquote>control<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">mechanism as fq_codel without any standing queues being allowed to<br /></blockquote>build up.<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">(Someone should try the exercise of trying to prove that an optimal<br /></blockquote>end-to-end<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">feedback control system requires queueing delay to be imposed. I've<br /></blockquote>tried and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">it's led me to the conjecture that one can always replace a standing<br /></blockquote>queue<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">with a finite memory of past activities - and if one does, the lack<br /></blockquote>of a<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">standing queue means that the algorithm is better than any that end<br /></blockquote>up with a<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">standing queue).<br /><br />fq_codel
could
be redesigned into a queue-free fq_codel.<br /><br /><br />On Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:46pm, "David Lang" <david@lang.hm> said:<br /><br /><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">If you think "fast lanes" will actually increase performance for any<br /></blockquote></blockquote>traffic,<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">you are dreaming.<br /><br />the people looking for "fast lanes" are't trying to get traffic<br /></blockquote></blockquote>through any<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-
left:
1ex;">faster, they are looking to charge more for the traffic they are<br /></blockquote></blockquote>already<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">passing.<br /><br />David Lang<br /><br />On Thu, 15 May 2014, dpreed@reed.com wrote:<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">Well done. I'm optimistic for deployment everywhere, except<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>CMTS's, the LTE<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">and HSPA+ access networks, and all corporate firewall and intr
anet<br
/></blockquote></blockquote>gear.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">The solution du jour is to leave bufferbloat in place, while using<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>the real<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">fads: prioritization (diffserv once we have the "fast lanes" fully<br /></blockquote></blockquote>legal) and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left:
1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">"software defined networking" appliances that use DPI for packet<br /></blockquote></blockquote>routing and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">traffic management.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">Fixing buffer bloat allows the edge- and enterprise- networks to<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>be more<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">efficient,
whereas not fixing it lets the edge networks move users<br /></blockquote></blockquote>up to more and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">more expensive "plans" due to frustration and to sell much more gear<br /></blockquote></blockquote>into<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">Enterprises because they are easy marks for complex gadgets.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">But maybe a few engineers who operate and design gear for such<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>netw
orks
will<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">overcome the incredible business biases against fixing this.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">That's why all the efforts you guys have put forth are immensely<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>worth it. I<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">think this is one of the best innovations in recent years (Bram<br /></blockquote></blockquote>Cohen's original<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-l
eft:
1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">BitTorrent is another, for fully decentralizing data delivery for<br /></blockquote></blockquote>the very first<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">time in a brilliant way.) I will certainly push everywhere I can to<br /></blockquote></blockquote>see fq_codel<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">deployed.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-
left:
1ex;">If there were a prize for brilliant projects, this would be top on<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>my list.<br /><br /><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:25pm, "Dave Taht"<br /><</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>dave.taht@gmail.com><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">said:<br /><br /><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e;
padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Kathleen Nichols<br /><</blockquote></blockquote>nichols@pollere.com><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">wrote:<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Thanks, Rich.<br /><br />And to show you what an amazing bit of work that first fq_codel<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>was,<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
#fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">I have<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">on my calendar that I first "exposed" CoDel to a small group in<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>a<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-lef
t:
1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">meeting room<br />and on the phone at ISC on April 24.</blockquote><br />And we had all sorts of trouble with the phone, (eric didn't hear<br />much) and we then spent hours and hours afterwards discussing<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>wifi<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">instead of codel... it was too much to take in...<br /><br />me, I'd started jumping up and down in excitement about 20<br
/></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>minutes<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">into kathies preso...<br /><br />May 3rd, 2012 was the last 24 hr coding stint I think I'll ever<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>have.<br /><br /><br /><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/000023.html">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/000023.html</a><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left:
1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Ahh, the good ole days, when bufferbloat was first solved and we<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>all<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">thought the internet would speed
up
overnight, and we were going<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>to be<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">rock stars, invited to all the best parties, acquire fame and<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>fortune,<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt
1ex
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">and be awarded medals and given awards. Re-reading all this<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>brought<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">back memories.... (heck, there's still a couple good ideas in<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>that<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
#8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">thread left unimplemented)</blockquote><br /><br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/thread.html">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/thread.html</a><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockq
uote
class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">It looks by may 5th we were getting in shape, and then there were<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>a<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">few other issues along the way with the control law and so on...<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="
margin:
0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">eric rewrote the whole thing and made it oodles faster and then<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>as<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">best as I recall came up with fq_codel on saturday may 5th(?) -<br /><br />Ah, I haven't
had so
much fun in in years. My life since then<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>seems<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">like an endless string of meetings, politics, and bugfixing.<br /><br />The code went from sim/paper, to code, to testing, to mainline<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>linux<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #f
caf3e;
padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">in another week. I wish more research went like that!<br /><br />commit 76e3cc126bb223013a6b9a0e2a51238d1ef2e409<br />Author: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com><br />Date: Thu May 10 07:51:25 2012 +0000<br /><br />codel: Controlled Delay AQM<br /><br />Now, as I recall the story, eric came up with fq_codel on a<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>saturday<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-lef
t:
1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">afternoon, so I guess that was may 5th - cinco de mayo!<br /><br />And that too, landed in mainline...<br /><br />commit 4b549a2ef4bef9965d97cbd992ba67930cd3e0fe<br />Author: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com><br />Date: Fri May 11 09:30:50 2012 +0000<br /><br />fq_codel: Fair Queue Codel AQM<br /><br />let's not forget tom herbert & BQL<br /><br />commit 75957ba36c05b979701e9ec64b37819adc12f830<br />Author: Tom Herbert <therbert@google.com><br />Date: Mon Nov 28 16:32:35 2011 +0000<br /><br />dql: Dynamic queue limits<br /><br />Implementation of dynamic queue limits (dql). This is a<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>libary<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;
border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">which<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">allows a queue limit to be dynamically managed. The goal of<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>dql is<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">to set the queue limit, number of objects to the queue, to be<br
/></blockquote></blockquote>minimized<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">without allowing the queue to be starved.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">It was really amazing to me to watch<br />something Van and I had been discussing (okay, arguing) about<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>privately for<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">6 months and
I'd
been tinkering with be turned into real code<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>on<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">real<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">networks.<br />Jim Gettys is an incredible (and constructive) nagger, Eric<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Dumazet<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left:
1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">and<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">amazing<br />coder, and the entire open source community a really nifty<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>group of<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">folks.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e;
padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Maybe someday we will actually update the first article with<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>some of<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">the<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">stu
ff<br
/>we got into the last internet draft....<br /><br />be the change,<br />Kathie<br /><br />On 5/14/14 2:01 PM, Rich Brown wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Folks,<br /><br />I just noticed that the announcement for the first testable<br />implementation of fq_codel was two days ago today - 14 May<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>2012.<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Build 3.3.6-2 was the first to include working fq_codel.</blockquote
><br
/><br /><br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html</a><br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Two years later, we see fq_codel bein
g
adopted lots of<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>places.<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">As<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">more and more people/organizations come to understand the<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>problem,<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="mar
gin:
0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">and how straightforward the solution can be, we're beginning<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>to<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">win<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex
0.8ex;
border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">the battle to have a good Internet experience everywhere.<br /><br />Thanks to Dave, Eric, Kathie, Van, and all the members of this<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>list<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">for their perseverance, testing, comments, and
patience.<br />Congratulations!<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />Rich<hr />Bloat<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>mailing<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;">list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br /><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a></blockquote><br /><br /><hr /><br />Bloat mailing list<br />Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br /><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a></blockquote><br /><br /><br />--<b
r
/>Dave Täht<br /><br />NSFW:</blockquote><br /><br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><a href="https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article">https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article</a><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><hr /><br />Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br />Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net<br /><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel</a><br /><hr /><br
/></blockquote></blockquote>Bloat mailing list<br />Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br /><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a></blockquote><br /><br /></blockquote></blockquote>-- Sent from my Android device with K-@ Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</blockquote></pre></blockquote></div><br/>-- Sent from my Android device with <b><a href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onegravity.k10.pro2">K-@ Mail</a></b>. Please excuse my brevity.</body></html>