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<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head></head><body>I hope it is obvious I am in violent agreement. <br clear="none">
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The folks who think a centralized structure is more efficient or more practical just have not thought it through.<br clear="none">
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The opposite is true. Sadly people's intuitions are trained to ignore evidence and sound argument....<br clear="none">
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So we have a huge population of engineers who go along without thinking because they honestly think centralized systems are better for some important reason they never question.<br clear="none">
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This means that the non engineering public has no chance at understanding.<br clear="none">
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Whenever I have looked at why centralized designs are 'needed' it has turned out to be the felt need for 'control' of something by one small group or individual.<br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the designer. Shame on him/her. <br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the builder. Ditto.<br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the operator. Do we need one operator?<br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the owner. Don't the users own their uses and purposes?<br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the fearful. I sympathize. But they don't really want to cede collective control to a small group they can't trust ir even understand. Or maybe they do...<br clear="none">
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Sometimes it is the wannabe sovereign. <br clear="none">
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The weakness of the argument is that control need not be centralized. In fact centralized control is inefficient and unnecessary.<br clear="none">
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I've devoted much of my work to that last sentence.<br clear="none">
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For example... In Croquet we (me and 3 others) demonstrated that it's pretty easy to build a real time shared multimedia virtual world that works without a single central server. It really worked and scaled linearly with users adding their own computer when they entered the world, and removing it when they got disconnected. . Just pulling the plug was fine.) <br clear="none">
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Same with decentralized wireless ... no need for centralized spectrum allocation... linear growth of capacity with transceiver participation coming from the actual physics of the real propagation environment.<br clear="none">
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Equating centralized control with efficiency or necessary management is a false intuition.<br clear="none">
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Always be skeptical of the claim that centralized control is good. Cui bono?<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 28, 2014, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class="k10mail">I didn't care for my name in the subject line in the first place,<br clear="none">although it did inspire me to do some creative venting elsewhere, and<br clear="none">now here. And this is still way off topic for the bloat list...<br clear="none"><br clear="none">One of the points in the wired article that kicked this thread off was<br clear="none">this picture of what the internet is starting to look like:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/net_neutral.jpg.jpeg">http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/net_neutral.jpg.jpeg</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">I don't want it to look like that. I worked pretty hard to defuse the<br clear="none">"fast vs slow" lane debate re peering because it was so inaccurate,<br clear="none">and it does look like it has died down somewhat, but<br clear="none">that doesn't mean I like the concentration of services that is going on.<br clear="none
"><br
clear="none">I want the "backbone" to extend all the way to the edge.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I want the edge to be all connected together, so in the unlikely event<br clear="none">comcast goes out of business tomorrow, I can get re-routed 1 hop out<br clear="none">from my house through verizon, or joe's mom and pop fiber shop, or<br clear="none">wherever. I want a network that can survive multiple backhoe events,<br clear="none">katrinas, and nuclear wars, all at the same time. I'd like to be able<br clear="none">to get my own email,<br clear="none">and do my own phone and videoconferencing calls with nobody in the<br clear="none">middle, not even for call setup, and be able to host my own my own<br clear="none">services on my own hardware, with some level of hope that anything<br clear="none">secret or proprietary stays within my premise. I want a static ip<br clear="none">address range, and<br clear="none">control over my own dns.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
I don't
mind at all sharing some storage for the inevitable<br clear="none">advertising if the cdn's co-located inside my business are also<br clear="none">caching useful bits of javascript, etc, just so I can save on latency<br clear="none">on wiping the resulting cruft from my eyeballs. I want useful<br clear="none">applications, running, directly, on my own devices, with a minimum<br clear="none">amount of connectivity to the outside world required to run them. I<br clear="none">want the 83 items in my netflix queue already downloaded, overnight,<br clear="none">so I can pick and choose what to see without ever having a "Buffering"<br clear="none">event. I want my own copy of wikipedia, and a search engine that<br clear="none">doesn't share everything you are looking for with the universe.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I want the legal protections, well established for things inside your<br clear="none">home, that are clearly not established in data centers.<br clear="none"><br
clear="none">I'd like it if the software we had was robust, reliable, and secure<br clear="none">enough to do that. I'd like it if it were easy to make offsite<br clear="none">backups, as well as mirror services with friends and co-authors.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">And I'd like my servers to run on a couple watts, at most, and not<br clear="none">require special heating, or cooling.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">And I'd like (another) beer and some popcorn. Tonight's movie:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/VJKvfvKU9pi">https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/VJKvfvKU9pi</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:<br clear="none"></pre><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 9:06 PM, David P. Reed <dpreed@reed
.com>
wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">Maybe I am misunderstanding something... it just took my Mac book Pro doing<br clear="none">an rsync to copy a TB of data from a small NAS at work yesterday to get<br clear="none">about 700 Gb/sec on a GigE office network for hours yesterday.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I had to do that in our Santana Clara office rather than from home outside<br clear="none">Boston, which is where I work 90% of the time.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">That's one little computer and one user...</blockquote><br clear="none">On a daily basis, the bufferbloat websites transfer far, far less than gigE<br clear="none"><br clear="none">IF the redmine portion of the site wasn't so cpu expensive, I could<br clear="none">use something<br clear="none">other than hefty boxes they are on. Similarly snapon's cpu is mostly<br clear="none">used for builds, the
file
transfer role could be done by something else<br clear="none">easily. I'd like to switch it over to do that one day.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">What does my Mac Book Pro draw doing that? 80 Watts?</blockquote><br clear="none">I love the "kill-a-watt" products. I use them everywhere. (while I'm<br clear="none">pimping stuff I like, digilogger's power switches are a lifesaver also -<br clear="none">staging boots for devices that draw a lot of power in a tiny lab that<br clear="none">can only draw 350 watts before becoming a fire hazard)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Your NAS probably ate less than 16 watts, more if you have more than one drive.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">My nucs draw 18 watts and can transfer at GigE off a flash disk<br clear="none">without raising a sweat.<br clear="none">(at least some of your overhead is in the rsync protocol,
which
is<br clear="none">overly chatty)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Several tiny arm boards can all do gigE at line rate, notably stuff built around<br clear="none">marvell and cavium's chipset(s), and they do it at under 2 watts. Most support<br clear="none">64GB mini-sd cards (with pretty lousy transfer rates).<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Pretty sure (haven't booted it yet) the parallella (which is smaller<br clear="none">than a drive),<br clear="none">can do it in under a 2 watt, and if it doesn't do gigE now, it'll do<br clear="none">it after I get through<br clear="none">with it - but it lacks a sata port, and usb is only 2.0, so it might<br clear="none">not drive gigE<br clear="none">from a nas perspective. (It kind of bugs me that most of the tiny boards are in<br clear="none">the altoids form factor, rather than the 2.5 inch drive form factor)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So I go back to my original point in that, once you have fiber to the business,<br
clear="none">for most purposes in a small business or startup or home - who needs<br clear="none">to co-lo in a data center?<br clear="none">You can have a tiny wart on the wall do most of the job. And that's<br clear="none">today. In another<br clear="none">year or so we'll be over some more tipping points.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">One thing that does bug me is most UPSes are optimized to deliver a large<br clear="none">load over a short time, a UPS capable of driving 5 watts for, say, 3 days is<br clear="none">kind of rare.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">On Jun 27, 2014, David Lang wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;">On Tue, 24 Jun 2014, Michael Richardson wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;">Rick Jones wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;">Perhaps, but where does having gigabit fibre to a business imply the<br clear="none">business<br clear="none">has the space, power, and cooling to host all the servers it might<br clear="none">need/wish<br clear="none">to have?</blockquote><br clear="none"><br clear="none">That's a secondary decision.<br clear="none">Given roof space, solar panels and/or snow-outside, maybe the answer is<br clear="none">that<br clear="none">I regularly have 2 our of 3 of those available in a decentralized way.</blockquote><br clear="none"><br clear="none">given the amount of processing capacity that you can get today in a<br clear="none">pasively<br clear="none">cooled system, you can do quite a b it of serving from a small amount of<br
clear="none">space<br clear="none">and power.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The days when it took rooms of Sun boxes to saturate a Gb line are long<br clear="none">gone,<br clear="none">you can do that with just a handful of machines.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">David Lang<br clear="none"><hr><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br clear="none">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel</a></blockquote><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- Sent from my Android device with K-@ Mail. Please excuse my brevity.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><hr><br clear="none">Bloat mailing list<br clear="none">Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat</a></blockquote><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br
clear="none"><br clear="none">--<br clear="none">Dave Täht<br clear="none"><br clear="none">NSFW: <a shape="rect" href="https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article">https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_indecent.article</a></blockquote><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></blockquote></div><br clear="none">-- Sent from my Android device with <b><a shape="rect" href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onegravity.k10.pro2">K-@ Mail</a></b>. Please excuse my brevity.</body></html>