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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Some terminology if one cares:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Segments” are “transported”
(Layer 4)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Packets” are “networked”
(Layer 3)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Frames” are “”data
linked” (Layer 2)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and last but not least …<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Streams: flow “over the air”
(Layer 1)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Starlink
[mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob McMahon<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 1, 2021 9:04
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> David P. Reed<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net;
Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Starlink]
[Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for
the internet architecture board</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think even packets are
a network construct. End/end protocols don't write packets. They
mostly make writes() and reads and have no clue about packets. Except
for, of course, UDP which you know everything about being the original
designer.<br>
<br>
Agreed the telemetry is most interesting and a huge void. Curious to more of
your thoughts on it, metrics, etc.<br>
<br>
Note: iperf 2 has write to read latencies. It requires clock sync. My systems
sync to the GPS atomic as the commonNote/ reference. I think end/end queue
depths can be calculated per Little's law (shown below per inP.) <a
href="https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/">https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/</a><br>
<br>
[rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 <br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Server listening on TCP port 5001<br>
TCP window size: 128 KByte (default)<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
[ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100
port 59142 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
20:57:37 (PDT)<br>
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr
Reads=Dist<br>
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.170/0.153/1.492/0.078 ms (4769/131082) 104 KByte 3674521
22841=787:18657:2467:623:84:41:66:116<br>
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.167/0.156/0.434/0.015 ms (4768/131086) 102 KByte 3742630
23346=1307:18975:2171:578:105:53:56:101<br>
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.168/0.157/1.337/0.033 ms (4769/131046) 103 KByte 3710006
23263=1470:18602:2148:725:107:53:60:98<br>
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.166/0.158/0.241/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 102 KByte 3756478
23960=1452:19714:2123:449:79:32:38:73<br>
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.166/0.157/0.247/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 102 KByte 3756193
23653=1234:19529:2206:439:89:36:44:76<br>
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.166/0.158/0.245/0.007
ms (4768/131072) 101 KByte 3758826
23478=1081:19356:2284:535:73:35:39:75<br>
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.168/0.158/0.283/0.009 ms (4768/131096) 102 KByte 3728988
23477=1338:19301:1995:535:104:46:59:99<br>
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.163/0.150/0.400/0.010 ms (4769/131047) 99.7 KByte 3826119
23496=1213:19404:2101:498:83:57:43:97<br>
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.149/0.236/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.6 KByte 3951089
23652=1328:19498:2074:493:77:41:53:88<br>
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.149/0.235/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 96.4 KByte 3958720
23725=1509:19410:2051:463:91:46:47:108<br>
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.165/0.149/1.492/0.028 ms (47685/131072) 101 KByte 3784172
234891=12719:192446:21620:5338:892:440:505:931<br>
<br>
[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times -b
5g -e<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 68866 (1 flows)<br>
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte<br>
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
[ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59142 connected with 192.168.1.94
port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.33 ms) on 2021-07-01 20:57:37
(PDT)<br>
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT
NetPwr<br>
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0
5 295K/111 us 5631373<br>
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 295K/120 us
5207927<br>
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 306K/110 us
5681375<br>
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 306K/107 us
5841891<br>
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 306K/110 us
5681375<br>
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 306K/109 us
5733498<br>
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 306K/115 us
5435499<br>
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 306K/111 us
5630192<br>
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 306K/110 us
5682567<br>
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 306K/109 us
5733498<br>
<br>
[rjmcmahon@rjm-nas ~]$ iperf -s -i 1 --histograms=10u<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Server listening on TCP port 5001 with pid 5166<br>
Read buffer size: 128 KByte (Dist bin width=16.0 KByte)<br>
Enabled rx-histograms bin-width=0.010 ms, bins=1000 (clients must use
--trip-times)<br>
TCP window size: 128 KByte (default)<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
[ 1] local 192.168.1.94%enp2s0 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.100
port 59146 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=4) (peer 2.1.3-rc) on 2021-07-01
21:01:42 (PDT)<br>
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
Burst Latency avg/min/max/stdev (cnt/size) inP NetPwr
Reads=Dist<br>
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.164/0.149/1.832/0.101 ms (4769/131072) 100 KByte 3809846
22370=435:17000:3686:1060:77:35:25:52<br>
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:3,16:4414,17:227,18:49,19:14,20:11,21:6,22:1,23:1,35:1,49:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/133,Outliers=352,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)<br>
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.156/0.148/0.235/0.006 ms (4768/131094) 95.0 KByte 4018733
21762=498:16581:2918:1512:75:36:56:86<br>
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:6,16:4304,17:287,18:99,19:36,20:21,21:10,22:3,23:1,24:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=458,obl/obu=0/0) (0.235
ms/1625198503.810735)<br>
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.150/0.515/0.009 ms (4769/131049) 96.2 KByte 3966043
22863=528:18422:3099:571:78:36:47:82<br>
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4078,17:416,18:182,19:50,20:23,21:9,22:4,23:3,24:1,27:1,30:1,52:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.515 ms/1625198505.144479)<br>
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 0.157/0.149/0.284/0.007
ms (4768/131082) 95.9 KByte 3978135 22766=472:18044:3360:646:90:37:51:66<br>
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=15:1,16:4183,17:342,18:159,19:37,20:23,21:13,22:4,23:3,25:1,27:1,29:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=23,obl/obu=0/0) (0.284
ms/1625198505.973695)<br>
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.157/0.149/0.381/0.008 ms (4769/131061) 95.9 KByte 3978347
22759=451:18039:3415:632:57:16:49:100<br>
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=15:1,16:4253,17:287,18:150,19:31,20:11,21:15,22:6,23:4,24:4,25:1,26:1,27:1,28:2,30:1,39:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/23,Outliers=36,obl/obu=0/0) (0.381
ms/1625198507.119394)<br>
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.157/0.151/0.222/0.006 ms (4768/131072) 96.0 KByte 3974720
22661=422:17875:3411:723:95:29:44:62<br>
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4166,17:405,18:130,19:30,20:21,21:8,22:7,23:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.222 ms/1625198508.350409)<br>
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.150/0.302/0.008 ms (4768/131082) 96.3 KByte 3962779
22723=453:17930:3414:699:93:24:33:77<br>
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4179,17:323,18:152,19:50,20:33,21:18,22:6,23:1,24:2,26:1,27:1,28:1,31:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.302 ms/1625198509.416997)<br>
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.157/0.150/0.217/0.006 ms (4769/131061) 96.0 KByte 3974060
22923=489:18132:3533:568:78:23:36:64<br>
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec F8-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(4769)=16:4228,17:317,18:137,19:45,20:21,21:14,22:7
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/21,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.217 ms/1625198510.34875)<br>
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.150/0.363/0.009 ms (4768/131072) 96.3 KByte 3960477
22677=472:17988:3377:533:92:50:64:101<br>
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4194,17:253,18:173,19:62,20:32,21:27,22:12,23:8,24:3,25:2,28:1,37:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/18/23,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.363 ms/1625198511.392746)<br>
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.156/0.150/0.232/0.005 ms (4768/131082) 95.5 KByte 3993997
23174=396:18593:3590:461:50:13:25:46<br>
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec F8-PDF:
bin(w=10us):cnt(4768)=16:4378,17:234,18:113,19:21,20:10,21:6,22:4,24:2
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/20,Outliers=0,obl/obu=0/0) (0.232 ms/1625198512.528385)<br>
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec
0.158/0.148/1.832/0.033 ms (47685/131072) 96.3 KByte 3961002
226681=4616:178607:33803:7405:785:299:430:736<br>
[ 1] 0.00-10.00 sec F8(f)-PDF: bin(w=10us):cnt(47685)=15:11,16:42378,17:3091,18:1344,19:376,20:206,21:126,22:54,23:22,24:13,25:4,26:2,27:4,28:4,29:1,30:2,31:1,35:1,37:1,39:1,49:1,52:1,55:1,67:1,74:1,85:1,90:2,94:1,95:1,97:1,100:1,103:1,104:1,113:1,114:1,115:2,116:1,118:1,119:2,120:1,125:2,126:1,127:1,132:1,133:1,134:1,137:2,138:1,140:1,142:2,143:1,144:1,149:1,153:1,157:1,159:1,184:1
(5.00/95.00/99.7%=16/17/22,Outliers=279,obl/obu=0/0) (1.832
ms/1625198502.626723)<br>
<br>
<br>
[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ iperf -c 192.168.1.94 -i 1 --trip-times -b
5g -e <br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Client connecting to 192.168.1.94, TCP port 5001 with pid 69171 (1 flows)<br>
Write buffer size: 131072 Byte<br>
TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
[ 1] local 192.168.1.100%enp4s0 port 59146 connected with 192.168.1.94
port 5001 (MSS=1448) (trip-times) (sock=3) (ct=0.30 ms) on 2021-07-01 21:01:42
(PDT)<br>
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
Write/Err Rtry Cwnd/RTT
NetPwr<br>
[ 1] 0.00-1.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4770/0
8 231K/111 us
5631373<br>
[ 1] 1.00-2.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 240K/120 us
5207927<br>
[ 1] 2.00-3.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 257K/114 us
5482029<br>
[ 1] 3.00-4.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 257K/110 us
5682567<br>
[ 1] 4.00-5.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 257K/108 us
5786586<br>
[ 1] 5.00-6.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 257K/136 us
4595230<br>
[ 1] 6.00-7.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 257K/111 us
5631373<br>
[ 1] 7.00-8.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 257K/131 us
4770621<br>
[ 1] 8.00-9.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4769/0
0 257K/110 us
5682567<br>
[ 1] 9.00-10.00 sec 596 MBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 4768/0
0 257K/110 us
5681375<br>
[ 1] 0.00-10.01 sec 5.82 GBytes 5.00 Gbits/sec 47687/0
8 257K/110 us
5676364<br>
[rjmcmahon@ryzen3950 iperf2-code]$ <br>
<br>
Bob <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <<a
href="mailto:dpreed@deepplum.com">dpreed@deepplum.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Well, nice that the folks doing the
conference are willing to consider that quality of user experience has
little to do with signalling rate at the physical layer or throughput of FTP
transfers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>But honestly, the fact that they
call the problem "network quality" suggests that they REALLY, REALLY
don't understand the Internet isn't the hardware or the routers or even the
routing algorithms *to its users*.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>By ignoring the diversity of
applications now and in the future, and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will
be coming up, this conference will likely fall into the usual trap that net-heads
fall into - optimizing for some imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in
fact will probably never be what users actually will do given the chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I saw this issue in 1976 in the
group developing the original Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the
network* special tricks to optimize ASR33 logins to remote computers from
terminal concentrators (aka remote login), bulk file transfers between file
systems on different time-sharing systems, and "sessions" (virtual
circuits) that required logins. And then trying to exploit underlying
"multicast" by building it into the IP layer, because someone thought
that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Frankly, to think of
"quality" as something that can be "provided" by "the
network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system
design". Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If
you want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at
all times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you
don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they might
expect to experience that they don't experience.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>There was much fighting back in 1976
that basically involved "network experts" saying that the network was
the place to "solve" such issues as quality, so applications could
avoid having to solve such issues.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>What some of us managed to do was to
argue that you can't "solve" such issues. All you can do is provide a
framework that enables different uses to *cooperate* in some way.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Which is why the Internet drops
packets rather than queueing them, and why diffserv cannot work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>(I know the latter is
conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv attempts to talk about
end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never, ever explains what the
diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the IP layer can actually
control. So it is meaningless - another violation of the so-called end-to-end
principle).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Networks are about getting packets
from here to there, multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. Quality
is a whole different thing. Quality can be improved by end-to-end approaches,
if the underlying network provides some kind of thing that actually creates a
way for end-to-end applications to affect queueing and routing decisions, and
more importantly getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what
is actually going on with the other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This conference won't talk about it
this way. So don't waste your time.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:0in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht"
<<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com" target="_blank">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>>
said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-3236536184715428026SafeStyles1625187388">
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>> The program committee members
are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can<br>
> move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind<br>
> repetitions of speedtest.<br>
> <br>
> For complete details, please see:<br>
> <a href="https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/"
target="_blank">https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/</a><br>
> <br>
> Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth)<br>
> Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021<br>
> <br>
> Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days:<br>
> <br>
> 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021<br>
> 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021<br>
> 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021<br>
> <br>
> Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira<br>
> <br>
> The Program Committee members:<br>
> <br>
> Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam<br>
> Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff<br>
> Huston, Cullen <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jennings</st1:place></st1:City>,
Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind,<br>
> Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols,<br>
> Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein.<br>
> <br>
> Send Submissions to: <a href="mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org"
target="_blank">network-quality-workshop-pc@iab.org</a>.<br>
> <br>
> Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and<br>
> others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and<br>
> advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience<br>
> based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers<br>
> understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be<br>
> discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of<br>
> actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or<br>
> other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus<br>
> on specific protocol solutions.<br>
> <br>
> The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend<br>
> should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the<br>
> form of an Internet-Draft.<br>
> <br>
> All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the<br>
> workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on<br>
> the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to<br>
> content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will<br>
> have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion<br>
> and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.<br>
> <br>
> Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions<br>
> themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published<br>
> afterwards.<br>
> <br>
> Overview:<br>
> <br>
> "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of
progress<br>
> is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of<br>
> the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people<br>
> don’t consider questions such as:<br>
> <br>
> What is the latency under typical working conditions?<br>
> How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods?<br>
> Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols?<br>
> What services can be run by clients of the network?<br>
> What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there
firewalls?<br>
> What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS?<br>
> To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and<br>
> authenticity of user communications guarded?<br>
> <br>
> Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on<br>
> measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to<br>
> end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the<br>
> right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to<br>
> focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most and at<br>
> the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will<br>
> give them the best experience."<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Latest Podcast:<br>
> <a
href="https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/"
target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/</a><br>
> <br>
> Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Cerowrt-devel mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel"
target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel</a><br>
> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</blockquote>
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