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-------- Messaggio originale --------<br>
Da: Alessandro Bolletta <alessandro@mediaspot.net> <br>
Data: <br>
A: codel@lists.bufferbloat.net <br>
Oggetto: I: Re: R: Re: R: Re: [Codel] testbed for testing fq_codel on wifi doesn't work as expected
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<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>Yes Dave, you're right.</div>
<div>For the public list: i'm trying to understand why i'm encountering bufferbloat in a quite simple (but geared with bridges and batman-adv's L2 abstraction. Another info: i'm also using trelay in order to use wifi interface of the nano bridges in the tplink
devices avoiding ethernet/802.11 header wrong translation) testbed. I already applied debloat script (the lua based one) to my physical interfaces as eth0 and wlan0 but if i try to load the wifi link with an UDP bidirectional flow I experience bufferbloat
and I still couldn't figure out why. Tomorrow I will try to simplify the configuration of the testbed but I'll have to solve this problem because it will be the configuration that we're going to use on our mesh network.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
--
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alessandro Bolletta</div>
<div>Mediaspot Srl</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Messaggio originale --------<br>
Da: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> <br>
Data: <br>
A: Alessandro Bolletta <alessandro@mediaspot.net> <br>
Oggetto: Re: R: Re: R: Re: [Codel] testbed for testing fq_codel on wifi doesn't work as expected
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<br>
<br>
<div>Can we do this stuff in public please?<br>
<br>
I think it is possible we are miscommunicating somewhere here.<br>
<br>
1) What I'd said elsewhere was that the debloat script did not debloat a bridge, when handed an IFACE=lan-br it doesn't do the right thing.<br>
<br>
if you have a bridge, the underlying interfaces need to be debloated, so you'd have (for example eth0 and wlan0 bridged together which need the debloat run on each). We clear there?<br>
<br>
2) Bridging wifi and wired together is a bad idea in the case of multicast. So that's a source of bloat given that the interface slows down a lot to deliver multicast.<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 6:43 AM, Alessandro Bolletta <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma; word-wrap:break-word">Why do you think that bridges could be source of bufferbloat?
--
Alessandro Bolletta
Mediaspot srl
Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:
</pre>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<p dir="ltr">Find /sys -name qlen_\* </p>
<p dir="ltr">Set vo to 2 vi to 4 be to 12. Bk to 12. For lowest latency set to 4.
</p>
<p dir="ltr">4 will clobber throughput. We are well aware of how to fix aggregation to work well with fq codel but didn't get funded so the best compromise at the moment is about 12.<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 1, 2013 9:31 AM, "Dave Taht" <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">As I said debloat doesn't work on bridges you have to apply it to the underlying interfaces. In /etc/rc.local if you must. I never figured out a sane way to parse brctl.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 1, 2013 9:11 AM, "Alessandro Bolletta" <<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I tried the lua version but it doesn't seem to apply correctly changes. Is there any common problem that I could have to know?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
--
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alessandro Bolletta</div>
<div>Mediaspot Srl</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Messaggio originale --------<br>
Da: Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> <br>
Data: <br>
A: Alessandro Bolletta <<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>>
<br>
Oggetto: Re: R: Re: [Codel] testbed for testing fq_codel on wifi doesn't work as expected
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<p dir="ltr">I don't thinknthe shell based version tweaks on qlen_be. </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 1, 2013 8:51 AM, "Alessandro Bolletta" <<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Hi Dave, </div>
<div>It seems that the lua-based debloat script doesn't apply changes in tc. Is the bash-based version identical to the lua-based or are there some differences that I might know?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
--
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alessandro Bolletta</div>
<div>Mediaspot Srl</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Messaggio originale --------<br>
Da: Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> <br>
Data: <br>
A: Alessandro Bolletta <<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>>
<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:codel@lists.bufferbloat.net">codel@lists.bufferbloat.net</a> <br>
Oggetto: Re: [Codel] testbed for testing fq_codel on wifi doesn't work as expected
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<br>
<br>
<div>
<p dir="ltr">The debloat script does not debloat bridges. You have to apply it to the underlying devices.</p>
<p dir="ltr">IFACE=wlan0 QMODEL=fq_codel_ll debloat</p>
<p dir="ltr">There are numerous other potential problems below. I advise simplifying your setup.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 1, 2013 4:34 AM, "Alessandro Bolletta" <<a href="mailto:alessandro@mediaspot.net">alessandro@mediaspot.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="IT">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi everybody,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I made a little testbed in my office with 2 Ubiquiti Nanobridge M5 and 2 TPlink 741nd.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nanobridges are simply connected in AP-STA mode and relaying traffic to the two TPLinks where i’m running batman-adv. So I bridged the bat0 interface create by batman-adv with one of the ethernet ports offered by the ar71xx CPU. So I connected
two laptops to the bridge at both ends and I pushed up a bidirectional UDP flow filling the wifi link available bandwidth (I saw that it constantly runs at 33Mbps in download and 37Mbps in upload).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In every device (tplinks and ubnts) i’m running OpenWRT BARRIER BREAKER (Bleeding Edge, r36692), running on kernel 3.8.12<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I executed Dave Taht’s debloat script for bash (and also the lua-compatible one) on every device, but if i try to make a ping starting from a laptop to the opposite laptop, these are the times that I get (sorry, it’s written in italian.
“Richiesta scaduta” means “expired reply”):<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=259ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=281ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=285ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=91ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=130ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=251ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=188ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=156ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=279ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=314ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=288ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=324ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=297ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=318ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=301ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=115ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=312ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=292ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=266ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=227ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=91ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=266ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=190ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=161ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=132ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=118ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=166ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=247ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=281ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=282ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=288ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=165ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=251ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=307ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=294ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=297ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=275ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=288ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=282ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=273ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=224ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=159ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=103ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=186ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=225ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=299ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=112ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=171ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=175ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=147ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=211ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=279ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=279ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=228ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=219ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=167ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=177ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=197ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=265ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=275ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=237ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=237ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=285ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=166ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=262ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=275ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=30ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=84ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=249ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=244ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=201ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=110ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richiesta scaduta.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=220ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Risposta da <a href="http://192.168.2.25" target="_BLANK">192.168.2.25</a>: byte=32 durata=240ms TTL=128<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none; padding:0cm"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">While if I ping while i’m not doing traffic at all I get 1ms RTT replies without packet loss.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can you help me to find the cause of this bufferbloat?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Alessandro<u></u><u></u></p>
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<br>
-- <br>
Dave Täht<br>
<br>
Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: <a href="http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html" target="_BLANK">
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