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Jake,<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/06/2019 18:39, Holland, Jake
wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Bob,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks for your response, I think it
helped clarify some important things<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">for me.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The point about starvation especially
was a good one I hadn't fully<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">considered, and I agree if SCE-based
implementations can’t demonstrate a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">solution, that would be a major problem
with the SCE approach for signaling.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">And sorry for my slow response, I ended
up restarting a few times to try to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">dodge ratholes. (Plus some day-job
duties, apologies...)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I found it a bit challenging to avoid
the ratholes effectively, so I'm<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">thinking maybe the right move is to set
up a testbed. Maybe playing with<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">that (very cool-looking!) L4SDemo tool
can either ease my concerns, or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">provide some more specific and detailed
scenarios to address.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I see that the source code is published
now at<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/L4STeam/l4sdemo">https://github.com/L4STeam/l4sdemo</a>
(thanks Olivier!). So I’ll try to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">bring that up at some point, time
permitting, in hopes it makes the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">comments and questions more productive.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[BB] Cool.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B70757E5-7723-4DC2-9B2F-2FF5F34DB9F5@akamai.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">One meta-point I wanted to make:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> "In trying to find a compromise,
you've taken the fire that is really<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> aimed at the inadequacy of underlying
SCE protocol - for anything<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> other than FQ. If the primary SCE
proponents had attempted to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> articulate a way to use SCE in a
single queue or a dual queue, as you<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> have, that would have taken my fire."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I think "fire" here is a potentially
harmful metaphor--I don't take your<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">comments as an attack or this discussion
as a battle, but rather a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">collaborative attempt to reach a common
goal of a better internet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I hope my comments on this are received
the same way, even where we don't<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">see eye to eye yet. While both ideas
can't be the best use of ECT(1) at<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">the same time, I take this discussion as
an effort to reach a common and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">complete understanding of the issues at
hand, so that we can hopefully<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">agree on the best approach in the end
(or if we can't get there, maybe we<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">can at least agree on the underlying
reasons we don't agree).</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[BB] Understood. I was concerned that I was demolishing your idea in
public, and I was trying to thank you for being willing to put up a
strawman. <br>
<br>
My quest is also solely to improve the Internet. I spend my
half-sleeping hours thinking through all the possible side-effects
and combinations of problems with different solutions. I hope I give
due weight to problems with my own ideas vs. problems with those of
others. However, recently I have had to counter some rather nasty
slurs on our work and our motivations, that did require some
over-compensation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B70757E5-7723-4DC2-9B2F-2FF5F34DB9F5@akamai.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">With that said, a few brief points I
think really should be raised:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">1. "non-problem" is an unreasonably
strong conclusion to reach from a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">snapshot failure to detect any
single-queue marking AQMs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">We know that tc-pie exists in widely
deployed systems, supports ECN, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">could be turned on at any moment by
anybody, and we also know there's an<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">increased interest in ECN since Apple
and Linux got it turned on on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">endpoints. Even if we measure
everything today, it’s hard to be sure this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">wouldn’t impact an in-progress rollout
that someone has been working toward<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">for their network with proper due
diligence, and following IETF advice<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">faithfully.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I think if the intent is really to
deploy this experiment under the claim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">that's a non-problem, it should be
called out in the docs as a risk factor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">and consensus should probably be
explicitly checked on that point. It also<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">probably would be polite to update RFC
7567's advice in section 4, since it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">seems like this position would
invalidate (or at least add nuance) to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">several of the SHOULDs given there,
recommending the use of ECN.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[BB] I understand this, and indeed I've been on the other side of it
(where someone else's inconsiderate deployment screwed up something
I had been working on for years - and screwed up other things others
had been working on). Nonetheless, to a certain extent, it is the
Wild West out there, and we cannot interminably walk on egg-shells
to the extent that nothing gets done.<br>
<br>
Indeed, FQ itself screwed up the work on background transport
protocols, and many other plans for novel applications of unequal
throughput (I'll start a separate thread on that).<br>
<br>
Don't worry. Classic ECN fall-back is on the ToDo list. I just
didn't want to do it unless we have to, cos I prefer simplicity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B70757E5-7723-4DC2-9B2F-2FF5F34DB9F5@akamai.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">2. “does not starve a classic flow, but
can be highly unequal” is also<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">perhaps too low a bar to consider a
non-problem, and also seems like maybe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">it deserves to be called out as a risk
factor.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[BB] To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that a lesser problem was a
non-problem. <br>
<br>
I was pointing out that the word starvation has a specific meaning,
that doesn't apply to Scalable vs Classic, but does apply to SCE vs
Cubic (both in a single queue). <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B70757E5-7723-4DC2-9B2F-2FF5F34DB9F5@akamai.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">3. One more meta-point: the sales-y
language makes the drafts hard to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">read for me, so please forgive some of
my confusion. I'm having a hard<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">time distinguishing the claims that are
well-supported by test results in a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">realistic experimental design from some
of the claims that are more forward-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">looking or speculative.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[BB] if there are any you want changed, pls call them out.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob<o:p></o:p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B70757E5-7723-4DC2-9B2F-2FF5F34DB9F5@akamai.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Jake<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a></pre>
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