[LibreQoS] [Bloat] summarizing the bitag latency report?

Sat Nov 12 10:03:11 EST 2022

> A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of
> a vw beetle.

And that's why I drive a beaten up 2012 VW beetle. :-)

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 9:00 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 6:38 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS
> <libreqos at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > > If I had more time, I would have written a short letter - Blaise Pascal
> >
> > >>  It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't
> understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put
> your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone
> that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of
> material. - Sen Ted R. Stevens
> >
> > Summarizing is tough. As Sebastian pointed out, you almost need a
> summary per
> > target audience. Those two quotes highlight the problem: to the domain
> expert,
> > it's almost impossible to summarize an issue because you'll be jumped on
> by
> > other domain experts - and, knowing all about the issue, it feels
> dangerous to
> > omit the details. Conversely, if an expert briefs some Senate aides -
> who in
> > turn brief a non-technical senator - you can end up with a widely mocked
> speech.
> > If you tone down the mockery, it's not hard to see how Sen. Stevens came
> > to his wording - pipes, capacity, delays, queues; it does start to sound
> like a
> > series of tubes.
> >
> > One of my coworkers likens it to the water system:
> >
> > The city has plenty of water, with big pipes and good pressure going to
> > everyone's house. Your house's feed to the water main limits how much
> > water you can get at one time - that's your download speed. Plumbing
> > design, pipe and valve quality all affect the delay between turning your
> > faucet on and nice cold water coming out. That's your latency. You need
> > to optimize both.
> >
> > I tend to find that customers like car analogies:
> >
> > On a perfect racetrack, a Ferrari will reach the end before a Honda
> Civic.
> > The Ferrari has more power, and is designed for faster speeds. On a
> > public road network, the Ferrari still outpaces the Civic on fast, open
> roads -
> > but it only takes one traffic jam, one poorly designed intersection or
> > stoplight - for both vehicles to be seriously delayed. Ferrari's have a
> > very high speed (your download speed), and multi-lane highways have
> > great capacity (high speed networks) - but a single congested traffic
> > ramp (a buffer between connections) can ruin the overall travel
> experience
> > by adding long delays (latency) while cars merge onto different roads.
> > Quality of Experience optimizes the buffers between roads, providing
> > a smoother experience overall.
>
> Also ferrari's are uncomfortable as hell in traffic. You can't see
> over the windshield, the seating position requires a massage therapist
> at the end of the ride, and you're paranoid as hell someone will hit
> you, and if the motor gives out it's a 2k repair bill
> and weeks of downtime before you get it back.
>
> Then, there's the gas mileage, or lack thereof.
>
> Another analogy we've used is the dragster design for many internet
> benchmarks. You can only go really, really fast, in one direction,
> without the ability to steer, and tons of smoke and noise.
>
> A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of
> a vw beetle.
>
> You need good steering, brakes, suspension, in order to build a balanced
> ride.
>
>
> >
> > (Both could be shortened, but analogy is frequently the way to reach
> > non-technical users)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 7:15 AM Sebastian Moeller via LibreQoS <
> libreqos at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >>
> >> so I think you have three audiences that should learn about this:
> >> a) end-users (my hot-take was tailored for end-users)
> >> b) politicians
> >> c) industry people (C-suite members of ISPs*)
> >>
> >>
> >> I think you need three different one paragraph summaries tailored to
> each groups focus.
> >>
> >>
> >> a) end users
> >> I would stress the "you can improve your link today with little work"
> to make it fit for video conferencing "under working conditions".
> >> I would not wade into the swamp that is "gaming" any deeper than
> necessary (so have a sentence along the lines of "these described methods
> will obviously also help other
> >> latency-sensitive applications like gaming"). Why avoid gaming? Gamers
> are quite opinionated and take promises often literally, hence are easy to
> disappoint so better under-promise, but over-deliver.
> >>
> >> b) politicians
> >> Here I would emphasize that while fiber-to-everyone is the ultimate
> goal getting latency under control will result in a noticeable "better"
> (because subjectively more responsive) internet experience for those that
> will have to wait longer for fiber. I simply assume that fiber-everywhere
> is the goal across the aisle in the US, at least over here all major
> parties agree about the ultimate goal and just disagree how to get there,
> with the party in opposition magically always seeing more urgency ;).
> >> So push this as a relative low-effort/low-cost method to noticeably
> improve the internet experience for the electorate...
> >>
> >> c) industry people
> >> This has two groups, those that run large internal networks and ISPs. I
> think for the first group the arguments for a) and b) could be re-used (b)
> reframed as low-cost ways to get more mileage out of the existing network
> infrastructure with a few targeted replacements/upgrades/configuration
> changes).
> >> For the second group I am a bit at a loss, as the arguments a) and b)
> MIGHT not be all that attractive for someone selling internet-access priced
> by "top-speed", making lower speeds more enjoyable/usable seems a bit
> counter productive... One pitch could be a  marketable advantage over the
> competition, but that requires actual competition.
> >> Not sure how to give the enlightened ones arguments to convince their
> peers.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>         Sebastian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *) some are enlightened already
> >>
> >>
> >> P.S.: QoS, vs QoE
> >> Cause and effect, means and end... What the users will evaluate are
> their experiences; traditional QoS can be a means to improve that
> experience, with a hitherto often neglected aspect being latency-under-load
> which above a bare minimum access rate seems to correlate stronger with
> user experience than top-speeds.
> >>
> >> To convince CFO, or congresscritters I would think the best would be a
> simple mobile demonstration platform... together with argument b) above
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Nov 12, 2022, at 00:16, Dave Taht via Bloat <
> bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what would you
> say?
> >> >
> >> > https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf
> >> >
> >> > (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 pages
> >> > is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we
> >> > hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to make
> >> > sane recommendations)
> >> >
> >> > Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or
> >> > congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
> >> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> >> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Bloat mailing list
> >> > Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> LibreQoS at lists.bufferbloat.net
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > LibreQoS at lists.bufferbloat.net
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>
>
>
> --
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>
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